The Grapplers Perspective
Welcome to The Grapplers Perspective Podcast, formally The Everyday Perspective! We're your Co-Hosts, Paul and Danny, we're both BJJ fanatics and Health and Fitness Professionals but essentially, everyday blokes. We talk to Grapplers (and occasionally other interesting people) to get their perspective and learn what we can about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, physical and mental health, fitness and nutrition.
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The Grapplers Perspective
#91 - Dr Asoka - Black Belt Doctor: Navigating Jiu Jitsu Health Challenges
Dr. Asoka shares his unique perspective as both a medical professional and a BJJ black belt, offering invaluable insights on health concerns for grapplers and combat sports athletes.
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Dr Ahsoka, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it Taking your time out of your day to accommodate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you're more than welcome, mate, and it's good to have a chat with you. We just catched up there offline a little bit, but obviously we're going to be talking a little bit about some of your ringside work with various MMA promotions and also the work you're doing with Combat Sports Hygiene, who very kindly put us in touch around things like skin infections and all the nasty bits and bobs. We get doing jujitsu on the mats and of course you're also a BJJ Black Belt yourself, so it would be good to catch up about your own training as well. But just in the way of introduction, if you just want to give us a little bit of a rundown or our audience a little bit of a rundown about some of the work you do, that'd be great to start there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no worries. So I'm in the MMA world. I've been working as a ringside physician for the past couple of years. I've been a ringside physician for Cage Warriors, cage Warriors Academy, bellator, some of the Misfits boxing events as well, and some smaller shows like smaller jiu-jitsu shows. You know, charity boxing events and kickboxing events. So I'm quite experienced. I've got a lot of trauma background.
Speaker 2:I was a surgeon before I became my current role as a GP, so I've worked in trauma surgery, plastic surgery. Currently my main role is a GPp. I'm also the head of gp training at our local hospital and an examiner for imperial medical medical school. I'm also one of the medical advisors for combat sports combat sports id, which I think is a really good product, a naturally based um hydrochlorous acid project which the body normally produces to combat infections, and they've now been producing it in a really good, cost-effective way.
Speaker 2:Outside of medicine, I'm a BJJ black belt. I train under Dave Lee at Team Crossface, who's got some UFC fighters like Sam Patterson fighting in Paris next week. I've been training with them for 20 years. I'm really passionate about MMA and sport and jiu-jitsu. I'm also a BJJ black belt under Dave and Dave Marcello, so I've competed myself many moons ago in amateur MMA and BJJ comp, so I know what it's like to be on. You know both sides of the fence, both the medical advisor and someone who wants to key into training every week and get as much training in as they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing. So what were you first? Were you a martial artist and jiu-jitsu practitioner or a doctor?
Speaker 2:No, I was, if you don't count, going to karate and taekwondo.
Speaker 1:No, we don't count that.
Speaker 2:And then, slowly, as you say, I was training traditional martial arts, taekwondo quite high up in that. And then, like most people, I saw UFC one and you say I was training traditional martial art taekwondo quite high up in that. And then, like most people, I saw UFC 1. And you know just amazing how Hoyce Gracie was, you know, taking all these guys down and just submitting them, and then at that time there wasn't really much BJJ around. A couple of guys were delving in it, but to get to BJJ you had to travel. I was working in Manchester so you literally would have to travel down to London to do some gi class, so it wasn't really an option. But then I luckily my job got transferred down to London and hence I got access to lots of different BJJ MMA gyms and I was hooked since then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man and I've trained with a couple of doctors and I think we, I think we might even still do train with a couple of doctors. So I know that plenty of doctors do combat sports, but as a doctor, kind of being aware of the dangers I mean, were you ever concerned about, especially if you're competing as well? I mean, what were your thoughts there as a doctor competing?
Speaker 2:Well, I wanted to teach. I don't know why most people I mean, I wanted actually to compete, to test what I'm learning. I looked at it and said and I didn't want to. I wasn't sure I wanted to be a professional fighter, but I wanted to test what I'm learning actually works in a real-life environment. So that's why I sort of competed in.
Speaker 2:I initially competed in a couple of kickboxing fights, more BJJ comps and then some amateur MMA. So I really wanted to compete and I say the coaches I trained under were really good. They wouldn't put me in there unless they think that I was, you know, you know, ready, um. So I really trained with a lot of guys who were doing the pro fights and everything and making sure I was ready for for competition. I'm so glad I've done it. And martial arts, bjj, martial arts and competing has made me a better doctor, because not much stuff now that I see in my medical life bothers me, because I get, you know, I've been through, I've been in a cage, I've, you know, I've been on a mat against another man. So it really I think the two have complemented each other quite well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I find that with a lot of things actually I've done a similar to you. I've I've been around the the the sort of jujitsu game for about 20 years, on and off, very casual, a bit of a hobbyist. But I competed in some amateur MMA back in the day and and likewise it's definitely helps kind of with stressful situations elsewhere. So I can completely resonate with that. And how did you end up getting into the ringside stuff?
Speaker 2:Well, ironically. Ironically, that's one of my friends. You probably know him, john Gooden who is one of my best friends who commentates for the UFC.
Speaker 2:He actually because a lot of this stuff. One of the things I do on the side is I do a lot of the fighter medical. So I have a website for fighters who can get their MRI scans et cetera, et cetera. I was initially going to do that that was where I was branching out into, but he put me in touch with some people who were needing doctors. So, like most things in life, it's connections. So John put me in touch with some guys and eventually I just watched a few shows and eventually, you know, got to work with the guys who were doing Cage Warriors and I've been going to Cage Warriors ever since I got the chance to go to Bellator when they were in wembley, I think last year.
Speaker 2:I think obviously that's gonna I'm not shopping with that now, but uh, but yeah, it just got into it and I'd love to work with my, my trauma background, so it really fitted quite well um, in that kind of kind of work yeah, so would you be the, the doctor who would?
Speaker 1:if if someone's sustained some damage, would you be the person that goes in to assess that level of damage and whether they can continue or not?
Speaker 2:absolutely so. My role is is we initially do the pre-fight medicals. So in cage warriors, all the professional fights, that's the day before at the weigh-ins, so making sure everyone's fit to go had their MRI scans, had their, you know, eye checks, had their hep B, hiv bloods, all in check, do the physical, uh, physical, and then on the day we're at ringside, obviously watching the fights. If we get called in by the ref, you know, look at a cut, then we say, yeah, you're in a pro fight. So obviously you're kind of going to a lot of the time, unless something is really, you know, interfering with vision or you know you very rarely stop a cut in a pro fight.
Speaker 2:I've found, and yeah, absolutely, if one of the refs calls me and if Guy's unsteady his feet, then we have to make that decision whether the fight continues or whether it don't continue. We've got a full ambulance crew. So if someone does get completely sparked out, then we've got a ringside crew. We're all advanced life support trained. So if we need to dopr um, then we can do that. So backstage we take the fighters, give them a check over and then also I do all the stitching on site. So most of the stitch works and they're not clogging up any departments. Uh, it's done by us on site. To be fair, it's only a handful of times we've had to transport people up to hospital.
Speaker 3:Most times we can sort out things on site for the fighters and before the fights do you have huge worries with like dehydration and extreme weight cutting? Do you monitor that at all?
Speaker 2:well, unfortunately I don't know whether you heard, um, I was one of my colleagues. I said, uh, the bellator show, um, I'm in wembley. I don't know if you heard about it, but one of the brazilian girl, she had a cardiac arrest at the at the way because she dehydrated herself and wake up too much. So one of my I couldn't make it that morning but I said one of my part, my partner went to the medicals and we couldn't find that. They couldn't find her and she was. We had. She was basically arresting in the hotel room so we had to. They had to jump on and do CPR, take her to the hospital. Her sodium levels would go really down when you were trying to weight cut do the foods. She was in a coma. She was in an ITU for months. I think over a month she was in an ITU. So that's the worst case I've seen of weight cutting it's horrific.
Speaker 3:I think they just need to do something with that. I think, just fighting sports in general, they're just people are just hurting themselves and they're just going through that shit it's a, it's a long.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll guess, because mma is still a very young sport. I think we're gonna still perhaps you know, because every time you wake up you you put a stress on your kidneys. So we're gonna have to see with the what's happening in the future to this couple of people with getting what we call CKD chronic kidney disease in the future. That's the whole of the story. But yeah, I think weight cutting has got a way to go. Especially, some guys are cutting tremendous amounts of weights for fights. I had a girl, unfortunately, that tragic case in Bellator last year Did she pass away?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no touch what she didn't, she didn't uh, but I don't think, I don't know, but I'm very surprised if you ever compete again yeah, okay, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's really bad man and and I think what you sometimes see as well as you'll see, you know amateur competitors who maybe don't have any any sort of level of expertise around them, any any sort of not that. You know, nutritionists are even qualified to be really doing it anyway, but you know, certainly don't have a nutritionist, dietitian or medical team supervising weight cuts and they, they attempt to do it even for, like jujitsu, same day weight.
Speaker 2:It's insane I know, I think, yeah, I think especially uh because I, I do, I do a lot of the cage warriors academy show I'm in touch with. That's a really good, well run Jack Mason show. It's really really well run. But yeah, they have. I imagine there's some weight cutting there, but yeah, I think especially for Jiu Jitsu, same day weigh-ins. I don't, yes, I don't know about weight cutting, but I think it's quite not the best thing to do.
Speaker 3:It's just quite bizarre.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, as like a jujitsu competitor and black belt and obviously doctor, would you, I'm assuming, strongly advise people against trying to manipulate their water levels to go up or down weight divisions and just compete at whatever weight they're walking around at?
Speaker 2:I think, I think obviously you lose some weight if you're carrying a bit of a tie around. You know, around the midsection or a little bit there is.
Speaker 1:I don't mean through dieting, I mean through like sort of water cuttings or water manipulation, I think for jujitsu competitions.
Speaker 2:I probably wouldn't, yeah, I probably wouldn't be advised against that kind of procedure. Just diet enough. Diet enough to get into a weight category that you're comfortable to compete, compete at enough tight diet enough to get into a weight category that you were comfortable to compete compete. And my experience as well as I mean I didn't. I never wait um wait for jiu-jitsu, but I remember dropping down was a blue belt competing.
Speaker 2:I dropped down to wake um category which I hadn't competed for in the early, in the early 60s, and a the speed of the guys I was up against I wasn't used to it because I was so fast. And b I kind of did feel depleted, uh, a little bit on those competitions. So I think it's always going to be a. It's always a catch 22 about, especially for jiu-jitsu comps where you're on a day way and dropping that kind of weight because a you're gonna. You might not be used to, obviously you might be in the gym, but the speed of it was so I couldn't believe how fast these smaller guys were moving and how much I felt a bit weaker. So I don't think it's. I think for those conditions I probably would just diet it down to a good weight that you feel comfortable with, rather than do any weight cutting.
Speaker 3:You can call them little guys, mate they are.
Speaker 2:I'm the little guy myself. I'm currently 63 kilos.
Speaker 3:You're a victim, weight then mate. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:And going back to the ringside work, do you have any sort of guidance from the promotion or the medical commission around what's acceptable for guys to be fighting on with? I know you used to talk about the vision, so if they've got a cut that's affecting the vision, then that's normally like a doctor's stoppage. But you know, is there any other guidance or anything else that you're looking for where you might look to stop a fight?
Speaker 2:so I basically I mean obviously nationally the nice and nice what we call nice then um national institute for clinical excellence has produced has head injury guidance out there nationally which is used in A&E departments cavities all over the board. So that gives you guidance of when someone needs to go to hospital to really do a CT head after head injury. For example, if they're vomiting more than twice after head injury, that's always a big red flag for us that they need to go to hospital for a CT. Any amnesia so amnesia is also a big one in head injury and face guidance. So if you're looking for someone and they can't remember what they did pre the head injury, that's always a big red flag.
Speaker 2:I remember seeing a fight with back in the day on the UFC with Frank Mir, I think, and I think you saw that between rounds. I think the doctor's asking where was he and he said he was in the Mandalay Bay where he's actually fighting the MGM. He's fighting in the MGM Grand. So that would always be a big red flag. Amnesia is always a big one. Vomiting more than twice is always a big one. Any what we call neurological deficits, so any visual loss, severe grip problems there's lots of stuff in the guidance National Institute of Clinical Excellence, head injury guidance which we would use going forward to assess. And also, obviously, all of us are ALS trained. They're advanced life support trained and also have what we call either ATLS advanced trauma life support or something called BASICS, which is a british hospital of pretty awesome care. So we've all done sort of training, uh, and up to that, our skills yeah, okay, great.
Speaker 1:And have you done much? What did you say? Uh, with jujitsu as well.
Speaker 2:I think you do a bit of work with uk bjj right I say not, not, I haven't done so much with them, absolutely not. Not so much, really. No, not so much. It's mainly been the uh. Anyway, I've done. I mean my coach, dave lee, he's, he's got, he's trying to get a new jiu-jitsu promotion started. He's done one event server called quattrolinas and it's been on pay-per-view. So I've done that show and I'm currently doing the next show which is going to be on professional bjj on saturday, saturday. So that's the only stuff I've done with BJJ per se, pure BJJ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got you Fine and then going to maybe thinking about the training room.
Speaker 1:So obviously we touched on infections and that type of thing and let's spend a little bit of time talking about that. So we did do an episode I think it was maybe our ninth episode where it was with another GP, a guy called dr will duffin, who isn't a martial artist but he does a bit of work um with extreme medicine. So I had some experience with infections, yeah, and we we ended up using our ca. He was in the studio so he ended up using the screen in the studio to bring up lots of pictures and talk through some stuff, but I guess he didn't have the um, I guess the the intimate knowledge of jujitsu and grappling that you do um. So I think having a conversation with you now about infections and how it applies directly to jujitsu practitioners and combat sports athletes will be really interesting. So, from your experience both as a practicing martial artist and a doctor, I mean, what are the most common skin infections that you typically see on the jiu-jitsu mats?
Speaker 2:so so the one couple most common one of the most common is this is the tinea, or the ringworm um the medical term for that is tinea corpora and obviously I don't want to give, but it's quite an easy thing even for someone who's non-medical to recognize. Um, basically you, you'd get a little, uh, like a circular lesion which is pale in the center with really quite red round the outside, um, and it's. And the classic thing with ringworm is it's not very it's usually not the time not very itchy and it tends to burn or sting a little bit. Um, usually most common common exposed areas. So if you're on the forehead rubbing against each other, the groin areas are quite common and obviously the feet. I think the big thing about these you see a lot in, obviously, the rash I don't want to knock them, but the rash guard. The shorter rash guards, well, the longer type rash guards. So tinea is very common, but it is very easy to treat one. The longer type of rash scar. So tinea is very common, but it is very easy to treat.
Speaker 2:Most, as I say, most of the time you don't need to go to a GP. Most pharmacists should be able to sort that out for you. Just pop into your local Boots and probably easier access than going to A&E or GP. Most local Boots should be able to access and the medication is over-the-counter. So, example Clotrimazole or Tabinifins, the other creams and they're over-the-counter, purchase, dead, easy for you to treat With those kind of treatments. Obviously I think you need to be. You need to use the treatments for a full 14 days, especially for clotrimazole. So, even if your rash goes away sooner, the mistake practitioners make is they stop the treatment too early and make sure you can continue it for 14 days, and I wouldn't recommend, obviously, going on the mat until you've at least had, you know, at least the 48 hours of treatment. Uh, for, for that prevention wise, I think.
Speaker 2:For tinea the big thing is obviously, um, your, your gi, making sure it's regularly washed. I know people wear tight and I do as well with a tight lycra. Perhaps maybe, if you're doing double sessions, it may be an idea just to change that in between sessions. I know I'm going to see me through back-to-back sessions of pad work and then BJJ, so I will probably change my rash guard in between the sessions if that makes sense. Calm, combat, sports hygiene obviously great, naturally natural product. You know you spray that on your areas but you think it's going to be affected, especially if you're wearing, you're doing no key work and using the shorter rash guards or even shorts. Or I always wear combat spats. But if you're not wearing combat spats, obviously you know spray that, spray that on your legs and exposed areas.
Speaker 2:And likewise the gyms as well. I mean a lot of gyms now are I mean I can only speak for the gyms I train at, but certainly when we are, you know, the mats are regularly washed. Uh, for example, between the striking session and the gi session and the gym session there'll be the mats will be washed down. At the end of the evening the mats are washed down, um, and we're very strict that if anyone has got anything you know, they're kind of advised to strongly stay off the mats, um for them. I know it's frustrating for you wanting to get up, being a bj addict, but but do stay off the mats because a big thing about fumble infections although they can be a little thing on the hand, they can lead to what we call bacterial infections, which then need antibiotics and other things. So it's better just to nip it in the bud early.
Speaker 2:As well as combat sportidine, there's lots of antibacterial soaps you can use out there. Simple one you can buy on the counter is what we call Dermol or Epimax. So there's lots of ways you can do. The combat Tin is the most common. Then obviously you've got the staff. The combat that's tinea is the most common, uh, then obviously you've got the staff. Um, which can be from the simple impetigo which is like a almost like crusted yellow crusting areas, um, most again for grapplers, most common exposed areas, uh, to face the beard, the arms, again, if that's not treated appropriately, it's a very small area, go to boots, get some fused in acid cream, fused in acid cream from the chemist. If it's not very small area, go to Boots, get some fused in acid cream, fused in acid cream from the chemist. If it's not treated appropriately it can spread to things like cellulitis and more serious infections which can lead, you know, hospitalisation.
Speaker 2:The one thing people do forget about a lot is the herpes. It's herpes virus, the cold sore. So the cold sore, or in combat sports or rugby, or in our combat sports or rugby, herpes gladatorium. So classically on the forehead areas where you're rubbing in against them, the scrums, uh, obviously cold sores. People think, as a part of my, find a sexually transmitted infection on the lips or down below. But as I say, you do see an athlete combat sports athletes, rugby players, your crops and lesions on the forehead which which come back and forth. Again, those can be easily treated.
Speaker 2:Pharmacy, five days of RACs. Obviously don't get on the mats until all your lesions have crossed over. So they're the main kind of skin infections you're going to see and, to be fair, a lot of them can be recognized quite early by I don't want people to self-diagnose, that's the last thing I want people to do be recognized quite early by a I don't want people to self-diagnose, that's the last thing I want people to do but by a pharmacy. A lot of the pharmacies now have, uh, clinical pharmacists who are trained to sort of recognize these things and put treatment in quite an early stage and get you back on a mat quite quickly and obviously using combat sports hygiene, um, you know, as a preventative measure. Obviously prevention is always better than cure, we all say in medicine yeah, that was cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was kind of the the few that I was aware of and just need to shout out grappler soap as well. It's another one of the soaps that, um, we've kind of worked with a little bit who who sort of are great for cleaning and and stuff in the showers, so so maybe a combination of the two is a good shout. And just going back to the um, to the, the sort of the ring one, so just to clear, you said that once you start treatment with the cream you can get back on the mats like 48 hours afterwards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ideally 48 hours afterwards you've applied the cream you should be okay to go back.
Speaker 1:Okay, because it's sort of, I guess, a couple of days after it's still going to look quite. It's still going to be quite apparent, isn't it? I think?
Speaker 3:You get it bad when you get it. You get it like yours. Looks angry as fuck.
Speaker 2:The infection treatment should be underway by that stage, so you should be able to get back on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess, from like a gym etiquette perspective is there like because you know, if I'm training or coaching and I see someone with ringworm of any degree, I'm possibly going to call them out on it and maybe kick them off the mat yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is the thing I. If you look at the, it's like sending children with impetigo to school. Um, they're going to have I don't know if you've got those kids and they come home with impetigo or staph infections, which they do a lot of times it's still obviously they, they're, it's, they still can. They can once they've started treatment for 14 hours they can go back. But having said that, you know teachers and everything wouldn't want them back. And yeah, if you look at official guidance, you can. You know treatment is underway after 48 hours.
Speaker 2:But from a genetic point of view, absolutely I would still probably go on the side, of course, and keep them off the mats until a lesion is at least they've had. You know the lesion's completely gone. Or what you'll notice with tinea is, as I say, it'll be very dark around the or ringworm. Very dark around the outside but crust in the middle. Once you see that crusting in the middle, kind of fading and going more pale, that's a good sign that infection's all the way out. But yeah, if you look at the official medical guidance for impetigo, you know you can. It's not, you know, after 48 hours you should be okay. But I understand, yeah, from a geometric point of view, I would probably still keep them off yeah, all right, cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, danny was just saying a minute ago I I've not had it for ages, touch wood. But I I've had it a few times and there was one occasion where I got about like a cluster of it on my wrist and had had about six or seven like really nasty looking rings. Um, yeah, kind of quite close together.
Speaker 3:So that's, that took a bit of time you always look angry every time you get it then yeah, it's not. You always look more like slightly different to like traditional ringworm. It's still ringworm, but it looks slightly different than it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's because it's more of like a disc than a ring, I find when I get it yeah yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:That is a classic thing. If we're all, when I'm teaching um, junior doctors or medical students, that was a classic thing, is a classic. The disc ring really, really pale in the center and the redness around the outside is very, very prominent. That is that is tinea improving. Otherwise, sometimes it may look different. If people have tried different creams, for example, you can if they're not sure you know, I'm sure people have done it. They've got creams in a drawer. A friend of a friend has given a cream and it contains steroid in and steroid. If they buck something like hydrocortisone and even some ringworm preparations have steroid cream in it and then that can mask the way it looks. And even if someone's got eczema and ringworm, they're completely different pathologies. Eczema will be quite itchy and usually on both sides, whereas ringworm, although it looks quite horrendous, it'll either burn a bit or not cause any symptoms. And ringworm is classically unilateral. That means one-sided, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Where some of the allergic skin reactions are are bilateral, so that both sides are yeah, okay, and with um, things like um, like e, with things like eczema, that can look quite similar. I find I even had a like I do some sport rehab and I was doing a sort of practical assessment recently and a guy took his top off and had what I thought was ringworm because he was a grappler. So straight away I was like dude, you got ringworm. And he was like no, no, it's eczema. But it looked very similar.
Speaker 3:Was it a circle? Yeah, that's ringworm. That's what I thought. I had eczema as a kid all over my legs like, and it was never a dead circle, the only time I've ever seen I. You might not agree, I don't know, but the only time I've ever seen ring like is in grapplers, and it's always a perfect cycle, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you ever, do you ever see like Xima presenting like ring one?
Speaker 2:You can you, you absolutely you, you can you, you, you can do, and again also. So again, the thing with X-Men is basically, I mean it's. Obviously I don't want to turn people into medics, but it's a classic, it's a, it's a, it's it's basically, again, the classic thing is eczema is kind of not so many as, as danny described very, very. You know, um, very well where I'm circumscribed, uh is ringworm, hence the name.
Speaker 2:With eczema, it's, it's, it's not so it's more flat and much bit more irregular and also there's much more scale across the whole thing and it's much more itchy than than a ringworm would be. So I don't know if you see, when you guys find ringworm or you know they can come to the gym and just look that they're, you know that doesn't really bother them. Obviously it looks unsightly to other people and to themselves, but it's symptomatically, it's not really bothering them. Maybe perhaps a little bit of burning where someone extra will be rubbing their skin, rubbing their skin and make more of a itchiness to it yeah, I've had, I've had ringworm on on the top of my uh hamstring before and didn't even know.
Speaker 3:It was just like when I was rolling I was about to go on the mats actually, and like I pulled my shorts up like and, uh, yeah, my coach was like you got ringworm on the back of your leg and I was like no way and I couldn't even see it, even when I was trying to look, but I couldn't even feel that, I didn't even genuinely didn't even know it was there, and that was like a couple years ago now yeah, man, when I got mine it was super itchy, so I knew a cluster of six.
Speaker 1:Not surprised, yeah, yeah. And what's the um? What's the link between, like fungal toenail and ringworm? Will one cause the other?
Speaker 2:yeah. So fungal toenail again. Um, the classic thing obviously the feet is, because it's where it's more common, on the feet, because obviously we wear sweaty socks. You know we're sweating a lot on the feet, uh and uh. So fungal nail, uh, the classic, the nail is all the nails, quite a yellow, yellow color. Obviously, most time it's just the big toe, but it can spread to the other toes.
Speaker 2:The thing about fungal nail infection is it basically, yes, it can spread to the surrounding tissue. So it can either cause what we call cellulitis, a bacterial infection. So some people with fungal nail infections, fungal nail, get recurrent cellulitis which needs antibiotics of the surrounding skin and the toenail. But also, yes, it can spread to the interdigital amyloid space in between your toes areas and you get your classic tinea penis and unless that fungal nail is treated.
Speaker 2:Now, the thing about fungal nail it's not something you can. You see stuff in chemists, but if it's a good going fungal nail and the or not just the tip of the nail, but most the nail is affected, it's kind of going to need oral medication prescribed by a GP or a doctor. So if you've got good going fungal nail, it probably would need actually going to a doctor to treat it, because the treatment sometimes needs medication and the medication is not just like taking antibiotics for five days for your tonsillitis, it's taking antifungal medication for sometimes one to two months. So fungal nail and also doctors like to get clippings from fungal nails first of all, just to confirm that's what it is and know the type of fungus they're dealing with. So yes, in answer to your question, there is an association between fungal nail and ringworm, but more so, fungal nail and getting surrounding cellulitis, ie bacterial infections. That's what I commonly see of the surrounding foot yeah, and how about?
Speaker 1:from one person to another? Like, if I'm rolling with somebody and get scratched by a fungal nail, am I going to end up like looking like somebody from the last of us? Like what? What happens there in that situation?
Speaker 2:I hope not. So not not so much because a lot of the fungus is because the nail is quite a resistant tissue, so it's not like having an open skin or skin infection where there's potential for our. We're grappling in a clinch and my fungal skin can easily come off and rub onto you. Imagine how much force it takes to take up a nail and and transfer it. So it's not going to be as transferable as doing that. But if they've got the fungal nail and they've got the surrounding tinea on the skin, that's going to be a bit more of a challenge to picking things up one of our training partners.
Speaker 3:He listened to the last podcast and he had a bit of fungal nail and he ripped both of his toenails big toenails off because of the podcast. He just ripped them off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he just. He just soaked them out of beer.
Speaker 3:I think he just ripped them off and started again and then stopped training, and then he doesn't even train now which is unfortunate, you know yeah, no.
Speaker 2:So fungal nail. I think, yeah, I think fungal nail definitely that that's something which it's not something that can be simply solved by going to a pharmacy. I think you probably do need to go to your GP, get that sorted out properly. If you do get a fungal nail.
Speaker 3:You wouldn't advise just ripping them off?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. No, no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool. So just to summarise on that then. So if someone does have fungal nail but it's contained within the nail, then that's not particularly contagious for other people. It's only if it's maybe spreading more like an athlete's foot or something, where it's absolutely all right, that's good to know.
Speaker 2:Some horrible nails around there are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're unsightly, but anyway, most guys say in the football, as I see, rather than the bjj and grapplers, I must say, from the nail yeah, okay, and then and then and then, sort of moving on to the staff infection, because you you kind of see these horror stories in jiu-jitsu Obviously, we've all seen pictures of people with big holes in them as a result of staph infection. We've seen people getting very sick and being pulled out of fights, and then, of course, there's very extreme cases, and I don't know the ins and outs, but obviously the Ben Askren situation, where apparently he had a staph infection of sorts that then led to pneumonia and obviously left him where he is now. So how does a staph infection end up going from what looks like a small spider bite to potentially being life-threatening?
Speaker 2:I think a couple of things. So, number one people don't get on top of it early enough. Perhaps that's one issue. And, yeah, I think the big thing is perhaps not getting on top of it early enough. Also, looking at what else you're doing outside. I mean, are you sort of overtraining a little bit? Are you not getting your sleep in? That's going to obviously have a knock-on effect on your immune system and then potentially something which could just be, you know, be treated and contained quite quickly will tend to maybe perhaps get on top of you. Obviously. Look at your training gear. Yeah, look looking at something like a, a pre-eventive like, like, like, yes, you know, combat sports hygiene. Um, you know looking, are you using, you know, rash guards which are exposing you? So I think that that's kind of thing and also not recognizing it.
Speaker 2:And also the thing about sometimes with with staph infections turning into something more sinister, like a cellulitis, which means a deeper skin infection. You kind of may feel a bit flu-like, a bit tired, fatigued, before you see the skin problem, if that makes sense. So that's that. That may be where where things happen, I mean not just in bjj, but in when I'm working, when I worked in a&e or urgent care, people come with like a flu, like illness, first, and and then when you ask them I have got a sore throat, have you got a, you know, a cough cold? I haven't. But then maybe a day or so later, the, the red patch on their leg or the or the warm red patch of skin may present. So and yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:I think perhaps maybe out there putting that, that's this because people, people know about late practitioners know about tinnitus, staph infections, they know about, um, you know ringworm, but perhaps they don't. Selling artists goes under radar a bit because a perhaps, yes, it doesn't present so often, but when it does it can hit you quite hard. Obviously, talking about ben askren, obviously luke rockhold had his, you know mma career, you know, you know what. You're obviously not, you know, derailed a little bit because of your shin problem, isn't it? So yeah, it's really recognizing if you've got a flu-like illness and not much else going on with you, like cough, cold, runny nose etc. And you're a practitioner, maybe just have a look at your skin and just see if anything's a bit warm or red or tender, warm, red or tender, and get on top of it quite quickly.
Speaker 2:Use your combat sports hygiene. Use your grappler soap afterwards, making sure your gis are not going to practice in the same gi two days in a row, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and with like antibiotics. So like the gordon ryan situation, for example. So so obviously he's had these stomach problems which you know you probably don't know, like the ins and outs of, of course, but obviously his claim is like repeated staph infections and then repeated antibiotics, which has ruined his gut microbiome or whatever was ever. Whatever's happened there and it's essentially ended his career quite early as well. I mean, do you know much about that situation and what's your kind of like assessment of the Gordon Ryan situation and how to avoid that?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I don't know too much about the ins and outs of Gordon Ryan because of Gordon Ryan's situation, Because obviously there are other things. He was obviously other medical histories going on there.
Speaker 2:But having said that, I think, yeah, I mean in general, if, if you, if you, if you need antibiotics, you kind of need them. But don't forget, a lot of these infections can be stopped early. If, for example, a little bit of a uh impetigo, a little bit of um, of a tinea, etc. Can be stopped early, before it gets to that stage. So if you just recognize and have your antennae on um, uh, then, or seek medical advice if you're not sure about something, a lot of these things can be jumped on quite quickly. But yeah, if you need antibiotics, you do, you do. Unfortunately, you're going to need them.
Speaker 2:Now, in terms of if you're getting repeated staph infections, you know, perhaps you want to see your GP. Have you got something underlying along with your blood? So you may want to get a blood count done? I suspect not many people, but the classic thing diabetes can sometimes present with recurrent staph infections. So get perhaps some blood work done by your GP. Make sure there isn't something underlying wrong with yourself. Obviously, look at your training. Are you overtra, you know? Are you not getting your sleep in, etc. So have a look at these, these things. But then, yeah, and then then think the fact well, why am I getting recurrent cellulitis or staph infection in that antibiotic every every x amount of months? You know, look at yourself in your training, what are you doing? But then, yeah, please go and seek help from a gp.
Speaker 1:Get some blood work done, uh and then see if there's something at the line yeah, because I know Gordon mentioned that he pretty much just had to look at a mat at one point and he would get it again and not to that extreme. But years ago I trained in Thailand for a period and I got a staph infection while I was there because I I towards the end of the holiday I crashed the bike and had some injuries and she had a towel with a friend who I think probably had yeah, maybe a staph infection. Then I caught it and I ended up it broke out on my chin and caused like quite a large swelling and once I got it once, that was the first time I'd ever had it. Once I got it once, it was like it was almost in my system and I constantly just got it time and time and time again, despite trying to do the right things like showering before and after, making sure my kit was clean, like the you know sort of combat, sports hygiene and grappler soap and that sort of stuff wasn't around so much back then, but you add, like the old detox soap and that type of thing.
Speaker 1:So is it? Is it like what a situation where if you get it in your system like it's there, it will just keep reoccurring. Maybe a bit easier than if you've never had it. Is that a thing?
Speaker 2:it. Is it because definitely it's stuff we've all. We've all got. We've all got kind of stuff living on our skin. Stuff is needed. That stuff is one of the bacteria which doesn't live in our skin as part of the normal flora. What's either happening is either something is wrong with your skin barrier, so that perhaps when you, when you do get that accident in thailand, your skin barrier was kind of a little bit more damaged and so the bacteria can creep in and get in Also out there. I don't know how, you know, with the hot weather and everything, were you dehydrated? Was it nutrition? You know? Not on point, were you over-training All these?
Speaker 1:things. I was drinking a bit.
Speaker 2:I was drinking a bit, yeah All these things are probably going to be coming into play Now. The only thing is, I mean, this is going to be a bit. I mean, certain people there's a who do get recurrent staph infection and there's dermatologists or doctors. Gps can do a swab of your skin because there's certain toxin which some people can sort of carry and then that needs specific dermatological advice, but that's very rare. That's very rare, but a lot of the time it's the simple things why you can't do it.
Speaker 1:Currently, perhaps you're overtraining, perhaps you're sharing towels, perhaps you're maybe considering changing your rash guards in between sessions, if that makes sense, if you have one session, if you do a double session, maybe, perhaps those kinds of simple things really, rather than going a bit more complex yeah, okay, yeah, I mean one thing that I did do, and this may have been a placebo and didn't help at all, but I, I bought a big pod, a big pot of hibiscus, yeah, and like any any little grazes or scratches or anything I was, yeah, just get that straight in there, like immediately off the mats I mean they use that.
Speaker 2:That's the thing they use. If you ever go for for surgery um, especially some of the surgeons where surgery, where infections, are the high risk, you know they can damage what they've done. Hibiscus is what you use pre-surgery and I used to recommend that to a lot of patients who are getting a lot of infections. I think with hibiscus I think there's a manufacturing issue with it now. So a lot of time when I prescribe it now pharmacies come back to me saying we can't get hold of it. So obviously you've got your combat sports hygiene Ask the pharmacist. There's Dermal, which is a little bit expensive. You can buy it but it is a little bit expensive. But that's another antibacterial uh soap and sour ammonia. So there's lots of things out there. But heavy scrub I I used to recommend heavy scrub for lots of things but unfortunately it's I think there's a manufacturing problem at the moment yeah, okay, and then finally the, the mat herpes.
Speaker 1:So you kind of mentioned that was like the third thing you typically see and one thing that's often forgotten about because people associate it with uh, other types of uh contact support. Should we say, um, but how can you uh, how can you identify that and is that contagious? And what's the protocol for, like uh, not spreading that and dealing with that?
Speaker 2:so usually, obviously, the most common place is usually a crop of blister, so that the viruses which we had when you're a little little boy, little girl, you had most of us in this country had chickenpox at one stage.
Speaker 2:So the blistering rash. It's a similar family to what's called chickenpox, but obviously chickenpox is quite widespread. But what herpes does? It lives in a certain nerve. So once it's colonized a certain nerve, it will stay in that nerve and always branch out in that one particular area. That's your the rugby player who's in the scrum, or the jiu-jitsu player who's getting on the classic on the forehead. Obviously you've had an ex-girlfriend, a boyfriend on your lips or anywhere else in contact. So it always tends to come out in that same spot once you've got it.
Speaker 2:And unfortunately, once you get herpes, it tends to live in your system and then it'll come out from time to time. So you'll recognize it in a series of crop of blisters, um, little crop. This is similar to what chickenpox looks like on either your forehead, your lip, classically, obviously down below in other areas, and that's the easier way to recognize it. Um, once there's the blistering out, there it's, but it is potentially contagious to other people. So if you see if someone's walking to your gym or your training partner who's got a blisters on, they say, hey, mate, just maybe let's get out um, very easily treatable over the counter.
Speaker 2:You can buy zovarax? Um from the chemist. If it's a bit more extensive or more, you need to have something. Quite a cycle there, um, and then it works best if you attack it within the first 72 hours. These kind of creams and topical things um, in terms of infection, once a blister, like similar with chickenpox, once the blisters have all crusted over, then it's potentially non-infectious. When you've still got that blistering, when they see the, so you see some of the crop of blisters, that's the infectious stage. When the blister's crusted over, it's potentially past that infectious stage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, all right, awesome, and outside of skin infections, obviously, 20 years on the mats sort of been around various martial arts for a long time. Are there any other things that you kind of typically see outside of skin infections that maybe put grapplers in danger or or that are bad practices that people should avoid doing if they want to try and sort of have longevity on the mats?
Speaker 2:I think I certainly get older. I think I think obviously stretching, uh, mobility, is really good. Obviously that's more in the remit of a physio, but I think that's definitely important. Um, I'd say that the main, the main issues I see, obviously the knees, see your, your meniscus going um, shoulder injuries are more common, neck, necks are the common things.
Speaker 2:And again, you talk about going low in weight as well. If you, obviously, if you do go try and go too low in weight, you're losing muscle mass, you're going to be more prone to these type of injuries. So that's another reason perhaps, maybe not to do too much cutting or not to consider dropping too much weight because you need a little bit of muscle. So, making sure you're stretching, getting your physio doing some weight training Obviously I'm not a PT, but making sure you do do a couple of sessions of weight training a week to keep your. I think even Nicky Rod mentioned obviously he's quite a big dude, but he had talked about his muscle being his body armour, exactly right. So making sure you are getting your strength and conditioning, especially if you're a serious BJJ competitor getting your couple of sessions a week of strength and conditioning in.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important. You're stretching in doing a lot of stuff resisting bands. I think that's really important. Uh, you're stretching in um doing a lot of stuff resisting bands. I think that's really important. Again, prevention is better than cure. Yeah, nice. And the other thing I suspect for the older grappler I'm not gonna ask how old you are, guys are.
Speaker 1:I'm definitely an older grappler.
Speaker 2:You can you can know that as well, and I think the thing to do is recognize when you're over training. I remember um and it. It's so true I don't know if you see on Instagram.
Speaker 3:Matt.
Speaker 2:Arroyo, the Ultimate Fighter. And exactly right, as you're getting older, maybe, if you do those, I find injuries happen a lot of the time when you not necessarily competing, but when you're training and you've done your three or four rounds and then you're feeling a bit tired and another guy comes out to say do you want to roll another round? Okay, and it happened to me a few weeks ago, I'll get into it, and I got caught in an armbar. I thought get out, my shoulder popped. So I think it's knowing, as you get older is to say, well, I'll do my three or four rounds, but then I'll maybe not push myself to that fourth or fifth round where I'm just going to be at risk of getting injured. So especially, get old. I think that's the thing to do, is maybe do, and that way you can train longer. You can train longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's such a good point and it's funny because obviously, if you get hurt on the mat, it's always your last round that you get hurt in, because you then stop training but you're right. It seems to be that time where you're like, right, I'm done, I know I'm done, but you get one of the young bucks go, come on one more. You remember doing it to me the other day when I was tired go on, you don't need to sit out, just go. And then, yeah, and I think not only are you just physically tired, but obviously you're, I guess like your decision making and and everything else on the mats will be diminished slightly because you're tired as well and you might just make a bit of a mistake, a bit of a technical error that might put you in a compromised position which then, through tired body as well, can lead to injury yeah, I mean that's that's, that's a main thing and I think a lot of people hopefully obviously you've seen as well the white belt syndrome.
Speaker 2:They're just trying two white belts who are quite new. Or you get a big white belt who's just kind of just trying to run, you know, just steamroll through and I think, yeah, I think obviously to get more proficient at the belts you're kind of more technical, um, but I think that's that's. That's why I say a lot of injuries happening not just not for the non-competitor is is going to extra run or perhaps overtraining yourself. So consider, if you are a guy who's dead hooked on jiu-jitsu is your life and you know you're doing it, you know x amount of days a week, more than the two hobbyist sessions a week then I think make sure you're getting your strength and conditioning and your stretching and I think it's so important yeah, yeah, 100.
Speaker 1:And then, and personally, have you found that over the years, as your style of jiu-jitsu trained, like the, the way that you roll, has that changed as well? Have you found?
Speaker 2:I mean I? I mean certainly as I get older now, because I'm approaching a big five, oh, I'm still planning to train till I'm uh, you know well into my old age. Um, I found this thing when I especially was competing. I remember when I was doing mma uh, I was the mma competition. I just do blast doubles through people. You know, like chael sunnen was my hero, I'd watch his blast doubles all the time. You know, like Chael Sonnen was my hero, I'd watch his blast doubles all the time. I'd try and mimic those. I was quite successful. But then, as you get older, like Randy Randy if you compare Randy and Mark Coleman, right, randy Couture, as he got older, he learned submissions. He was using his upper body takedowns and technical Greco takedowns, whereas Mark Coleman was still trying to. I love Mark Coleman, but double-legged people where I think changing, where I think becoming more technical, I think trying to more.
Speaker 2:This is a big regret I have for my personal BJJ journey and this is what I recommend to. This is going off topic, but recommend to new BJJs work on your technique, work on your back, work on things where you're bad, so that technique will stay with you, whereas I personally thought I was trained that I was the fittest guy in the room. That was my thing. I'd be the fittest guy in the room, but not the most technical. And now that I'm a black belt I'm playing catch up with my technique, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So I would say to this way is technical, be technical and work on your technique Makes you always technical. That's what I'd say. So now I'm going back and you know, watching all of BJJ Fanatics, subscription videos and everything like that to improve my technique, even though I'm a black belt, and just learn more techniques as I'm getting older. And maybe, yeah, I'd say well, especially when I'm training, I'm not blasting through double double legs anymore. I'm doing my technical takedowns. I've body takedowns, you know, more single leg takedowns rather than blast doubles. So I'm changing the way I'm training yeah, mate, I feel that.
Speaker 1:And and one thing that I found as well, and you may be similar, but I guess it depends where you've been training, what style of jiu-jitsu they've used over the years.
Speaker 1:But obviously leg locks have become a lot more of a thing in the last sort of five years or so and there was a long period where I was, I guess, getting good at jiu-jitsu where leg locks weren't not only weren't just a thing, they were frowned upon, so they were just never really used. So I got quite good at a style of jiu-jitsu that didn't really factor in leg locks and I found find now where you know he's a nightmare for it. But so many of the younger guys now as well are just, they're just all on the leg locks and I'm finding now it's like an older grappler, not just in age, but somebody that has sort of started a long time ago that I'm kind of having to deal with almost like a new sport, because there's all these new moves in this new style of attack that I never had to deal with for a long time. Have you found that at all?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I mean I mean certainly, uh, our, our, our, our, our, where we train, obviously, uh, heel hooks are a no-no. I mean I mean when I get a heel I kind of mimic the position and look at the guy saying I got you that makes it a catch and release.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do the same to me. You know they, they mimic it and say I got you, um, um so. So I think, yeah, I think, and also obviously in the gi world as well as you can't really, if you're just training gi on its own leg locks are, you don't really learn much about them until you're obviously a brown or black belt, right, um, so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a new, it's a new. But but then I, I was doing sort of no key a lot alongside it. So I kind of was familiar with a lot of leg nugs.
Speaker 2:But I think from this is me personally, because I understand a lot of anatomy I know when my, where my body will twist, where it won't twist, um, so I know when I say, hey, that that's enough. But yeah, I think, I think I'd say be leg locks. Especially, he looks obviously just I, I either have that discussion with your partner before you're rolling, saying are we doing leg locks or not? That's what I find is the best thing to do. And if you do find you in that position where someone's got that heel on, just I think that I think it's also a responsibility perhaps of the person who got it saying look, I've got you, let's just put it there yeah, I agree, and not just that as well.
Speaker 1:But you know, when I have played with heel hooks and danny, I find this as well, definitely, but sometimes you'll catch people, you'll catch the heel. You're not applying the lock, but you've got hold of it, like you say, and they just go to spin the wrong way and you, you know, you need to be aware to let go to stop them breaking their own knee. But that seems to happen because, because I don't find that it's the, the brown and black belts that are doing it so much, it's, it's everybody now, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean. I mean, do you guys maybe train nogi, or do you do boogie or both? Do you guys do both?
Speaker 1:I do both yeah, I've historically done both, but probably a bit more nogi these days so what's the etiquette in your gym?
Speaker 2:uh, about, about leg locks, about heel hooks, basically I mean achilles, we don't worry. We don't worry about here because not much really can be. Uh, if you're in a straight achilles, there's not, and that's really there's not much that can be really, really damaged. All right, you work out your workout with a sore, sore, you know achilles tendon the next few days, but you're not going to have something which is going to be unless you've twisted out of it into major surgery. But once you're going to kind of achilles locks where you train in the gym yeah.
Speaker 1:So we do them a lot, to be fair, typically more in the sort of all levels of advanced classes. So our head coach is Sam Crook and Frank Takaju is obviously his kind of like son slash, I guess prodigy student and they're focused on leg locks at the moment. But Sam sort of reminds people a lot that if you're caught in a submission you need to be tapping early, and he learned that the hard way in a competition. I don't know if you saw the clip, but he had his tib and his fib exploded with a heel hook in the London Open. Toehold, yeah, in a toehold, sorry, in the London Open last January. So we do do them and people should know not to crank them hard and should know to tap early. But of course, in the heat of the moment, especially if people are coming into a nogi class or an all levels class and they just they've seen something on youtube and they're having a role and they jump on a hill or something, shit happens.
Speaker 3:You know, I think it's mostly ego, mate, I think most people don't tap. You know, I mean, that's that's what I find more than anything. I don't put it on hard ever, but most people just won't tap and then they'll just especially me being like a low about catching someone higher. You can feel it. You can feel they just don't want to tap to it and I'm like in my head I'm like I could just break your leg or you could just tap, I'll just let it go, obviously. But then it's like it's that annoying thing where you're just like, fair enough, like you, you didn't want to tap whatever, but then they're in such an advantageous position you just gotta like fight through that battle and I think that's the problem, mate.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I think people will be, yeah, just very eagle driven, driven because it's easy to catch a heel hook. That's the thing it's like. It's like cheating, isn't it? It's like a cheat mode. It's like the smaller guy who's nowhere near as good, maybe even a lower belt he can, you know, grab a, grab a heel to quickly go to the heel and he can crank it on and he can tap a higher belt. And I think that's why it's so appealing, isn't it? Because you haven't actually got to be that good at jiu-jitsu to heel hook people. That's the truth of it.
Speaker 3:You know there's so much to jiu-jitsu heel hooks are such a small bit but it's such a quick finish and it's such a easy access into it. You know, you could, you just got to get the leg there. You know, and, um, yeah, I always, I always think about this because you I row a lot and like, like into leg entanglements and I I always try and just catch and release. Um, but you do, you know you'll get, you'll get a heel hook and you'll look at them and they'll just be like, nah, it's not on, and I'm like it's on.
Speaker 1:But I think this is the difference. I think the side man this is. I think this is the difference with some people, not all, I agree. Some people have it is ego, but I think some people that's yeah, oh mate, I know, yeah, I know you're gonna say yeah, yeah, because it's obviously it's not on it.
Speaker 3:But again, I think that's experience because I know if someone's got it, you know, I mean if someone's got my heel, I'm like, yeah, I've got it, I'll just tap. You know, I got. I got no ego with that, you know, if it's on, it's on, I'll just tap. But I think that's where the problem happens in the gym and I don't know who's to blame in those situations sometimes, because you know the guy will have it and he won't put it on and he'll think the other guy won't tap. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to put it on a little bit harder, so I get the tap, and then all of a sudden he's broke his knee in two and I'm like, oh God, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'll get to where it's, from gym to gym, because obviously when I'm where I roll with my head coach, dave Lee, I mean he'll put stuff there on me, but he knows he's got it and he will let go. He looks at me and he goes I've got it and he'll let go of it. If that makes sense. We train that. Etiquette is there. It's sometimes a responsibility of the person who's got the submission on. You know you've got it. You know you can break this guy and put him out for x amount of weeks etc. As sometimes that go on it. So I don't know, I don't know which school is right, which which is wrong. But but yeah, that's certainly where I've the environment, I've my curriculum of my vineyard. So it's kind of responsibility on both yeah, no, I agree, it should definitely be like whoever whoever knows have got it.
Speaker 2:And, as you say, paul, the leg lot I mean the leg lot game has just expanded so much. I mean, if you watch some of the Jiu Jitsu competitions and how quick they're on it, isn't it? It's amazing. And obviously back in the day that guy Paul Harris wasn't it, paul Harris was just he was a bit too extreme. Wasn't he holding on too long? But, he was getting people like Jake Shields, and that wasn't he. He was a really experienced guy. He was getting on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I was just interested in your take, just being a doctor and obviously a practitioner as well. Mate, we'll let you go in a second, but let's just chat about I actually bought a little while back. I saw somebody at a seminar using it. I hadn't really seen it before. Then I went and looked and picked up a bottle. Obviously, as I say, we use Grappler Soap when we're showering, but just before and after rolls for a pre and post-immediate treatment. I was quite interested to see if it helps. It is very convenient to use because it obviously is a spray.
Speaker 2:Tell us a bit more about that product and your involvement with it and how that can help athletes. Yes, it's basically a natural product, hydrochloric acid, which is a natural product produced by our immune system. When you do get that staph or when you do get that impetigo, the actual product, hydrochloric acid, is antibacterial, antifungal, antivirucidal they're the medical teams for it. So well, actually, there's some sort of immune system will start to produce to try and combat that. So by putting on before, you're kind of putting that preventative shield, if you like, or Hadrian's Wall in front of your roman soldiers, to, to, to try, not to try and prevent, you know, to bring that stuff infection, prevent that that infection.
Speaker 2:And also you think we talked about stuff like um hebe scrub and some of the other stuff. They can sometimes irritate if you use it because it can sometimes cause a bit of irritation on the skin, whereas this product is kind of uh, for people who have got that sensitive skin or hypoallergenic skin, hypoallergenic skin it's probably kind of a bit more less irritant on the skin for them yeah and it's very convenient spray spray form to just it's not that's me, just spray on you, just that's it.
Speaker 2:Get your training yeah, perfect.
Speaker 1:And how are you in, how are you involved with it? Were you involved with the development or just the ongoing sort of product?
Speaker 2:Just the ongoing. I met with the guys last week. I like what they're doing with it and it's a natural product produced by our immune system rather than anything else. There's too many irritants in or allergens in, so that's our involvement, yeah awesome man.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate your time. Is there anything that you want to kind of shout out, um, or any thanks you want to give before we let you go?
Speaker 2:no, no, thanks for you guys for having me on the show. I hope it was useful. Uh, I say um, I didn't want it to be turned into into a ask, a, you know, a medical gp session, but I hope it's just a bit of useful things for people who aren't medics that you can maybe just know, not just want to seek help with things. Really, I think rather that that's a thing and know, know when you should be off the mats, when you should be on the mats, and yeah, we all want to train, as you know, as much as possible and keep our longevity of our training going. So shout out to that and just shout out. I don't know if I should do this, but shout out to that and just shout out. I don't know if I should do this, but shout out to my my combat sports hygiene and shout out to Team Crossface and Dave Lee, where I've been training for for 20 years, and just all the, all the guys who continue to train.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, awesome mate, that's been great. Thank you, buddy, appreciate you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, amir.
