#94 - Ellee Beckman - Teach Your Kids Jiu Jitsu with this Fun, Evidence-Based Approach

What if kids learned jiu-jitsu the way kids actually learn best? We sat down with Ellee, a Brazilian jiu-jitsu coach and experienced early-years teacher, to map a practical path from chaotic energy to confident, skilled movement. Her approach centres on play-based, constraint-led games that quietly encode core concepts—pass the legs, hold them down, take the back—long before children can memorise steps.

• using games to teach core concepts
• class length, ratios and safety rules
• age bands and intelligent pairing
• storytelling that maps to skills
• submissions taught with control first
• boundaries for school and home
• scaling constraints for mixed ability
• helping teens manage ego and loss
• blending CLA with concise coaching
• parent communication and retention

“Find 10 fairy-tale games and weekly coaching support at The Art of Coaching — link in Ellee’s Instagram stand store”

Guest Stuff:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thearteofcoaching/

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Ellie And Her Path To Coaching
• 2:46 Why Kids Need Play, Not Technique Lists
• 6:23 What Makes A Great Kids Coach
• 10:26 Age Groups, Class Ratios, And Safety
• 14:59 Inside A 30-Minute Class For Ages 4–5
• 20:46 Concepts Before Moves And Progression
• 25:01 Introducing Submissions Safely
• 29:51 Boundaries: Jiu-Jitsu Stays On The Mats
• 32:36 Keeping Tweens And Teens Training
• 39:01 Ego, Hormones, And Competition Behaviour
• 44:46 Boys, Girls, And Partnering Dilemmas
• 50:51 Blending Games With Guidance
• 55:46 Scaling Games For Advanced Paths
• 1:02:41 Resources And How To Get Started

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:48

Ellie, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

SPEAKER_01: 0:51

I'm really good. Thank you, Paul and Danny, for having me on here. I'm super excited for this.

SPEAKER_00: 0:55

No, it's an absolute pleasure. And you're obviously joining us from uh sunny Brisbane. So how is Brisbane uh this time of year?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02

Oh, do you know what? It's sort of it's getting into summer now, and surprisingly, it's getting hot. Like I know that like England's, you know, your hot days are warm, but this was like 30 degrees today, and it's not even close to summer. So it's gonna be a hot one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17

Yeah, that's that's that's about our height of summer, to be fair, is 30 degrees. Probably our hottest day of the year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23

Yeah. I'm not looking forward to summer, it's gonna be really hot.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26

Yeah, it's always it's always so funny t talking to Aussies because we're just getting into winter now, so it's starting to get really miserable. So hearing someone talk about getting into sunna makes me very jealous.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36

So enjoy it. I've always thought about whack Christmas. That's like my dream is the whack Christmas that you guys have.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41

Yeah, of course. Yeah, you have a Christmas on the beach, don't you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:45

Exactly. Yeah, you don't want to be anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Yeah, no fair. But yeah, thank you for coming on though. This uh this podcast today is really going to be for, I guess, jujitsu parents. So uh people that are either doing jujitsu and their kids are doing jujitsu or just their kids are doing jujitsu. So you obviously have uh a specialism in that area. So I guess it would be great just in the way of introduction to just learn a little bit about your background and I guess why you specialize in this area, and then we'll dig into some of the detail if that's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Yeah, absolutely. So, very long story short. I have been training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for about nearly six years, and part of that time was spent sort of living and training in Rio in Brazil as well. And my partner is Brazilian, so we we work together now with our gym and everything like that. But my journey started. Um, I've been an early childhood and primary school teacher for around 10 years, and actually, probably longer than that now, but at the time, 10 years, and then decided to go off on my little journey with my partner to Brazil and train for a while. And I really wanted to understand like the roots of jujitsu, and uh, my partner's a black belt in Luta Livre as well, so I really wanted to have that experience with this as well. And then we came back and decided to open our own gym. So we've been open for two years, and in that time I have taken the kids' classes and started studying psychology as well. So essentially, my role has always been to not just be a jiu-jitsu coach, not just be a jiu-jitsu kids coach, but also to see myself as someone who is really developing the whole child. Uh, we talk about the confidence and and the experiences that kids learn when they're training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Uh, and then I started to notice this little bit of a gap uh between adults' classes and kids' classes and the understanding of kids in general. So this is where my business in the art of coaching sort of started. I was very nervous in the beginning. I didn't want to share a lot. I was like, oh, I don't know how people are gonna take this. Like, what do you think? Anyway, I eventually was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna put it out there. And it seems to be really, really well received. And from the feedback that I'm getting, it's it has, it's filled a gap in the area of understanding kids and understanding how to teach kids, not just teach jujitsu.

SPEAKER_00: 4:10

Yeah, amazing. And what sort of uh what ages do you do typically teach? Is it all ages from like 16 down? Is there a specific age that you teach?

SPEAKER_01: 4:19

Yeah, so it's all ages from 16 down. I did originally have a lovely little toddler two to threes class, but that was a lot of moral energy. And I loved it, don't get me wrong, I really loved it, but I couldn't duplicate myself. So my other assistant coaches were like, what is going on here? So in the end, I was like, okay, so now I start from four years onwards. Um, I'm flexible with that four years if they're a very mature three-year-old.

SPEAKER_03: 4:47

So young four.

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

Yeah, yeah. But I love the four to fives. I I mean, everyone goes through like phases of which age group is like their favorite. But honestly, the four to fives at the moment are absolutely killing it on my maths, and they're doing so well. So they're personal faves.

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

Yeah, no, I love that because uh it'd be mentioned offline, but Danny and I are both parents, which is why I was really looking forward to this conversation. So I've got a he's five right now, but he's turning six in a few weeks, and he's been doing taekwondo since he was four. And when I started him in Taekwondo, um it was with a couple of friends of ours that actually train uh jujitsu as well, but they run a taekwondo school and they're amazing with kids. So shout out to Josh Bishop at uh New Wave Martial Arts in Plymouth. But I also took him to judo as well because that was the only like grappling thing that was available because our academy doesn't do uh a kids' class that young. And there was a distinct difference between like how they were teaching grappling versus the striking arts, and he just didn't take to the grappling at all. So it'd be interesting to hear, like I guess, from you how you approach teaching kids at that age and like the best way that you can get them engaged in grappling and actually teach them some skill because yeah, as I say, he he's a maniac and he's like full of beans and energy, but he does not listen and he does not want to learn technique. So, how do you teach a kid jujitsu without that?

SPEAKER_01: 6:11

I love that so much. Um, so basically, first of all, I think that the if we're gonna look at sort of kids' programs in any kind of martial art, I know that people like to, you know, we we talk about karate and we talk about all of these kind of other other martial arts, but in all honesty, they've been doing it for so long that they've really nailed the whole kids thing. Like they, if we're talking about like retention and we're talking about keeping kids engaged, and they really have it covered. And I just feel like with the like growth of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, even in the last sort of 10 years, we just haven't got there yet. And there's nothing wrong with that, we just haven't quite caught up. So, what I was seeing happening even in my local area was teaching techniques to small children because that's how you would teach an adult, that's what we know of. And immediately I remember my partner was a purple belt at the time, and he came home from the gym that we were training at, and he had taught a kid's class. And he's like, What was this? Like, this is what did I just do? I was like, Well, what do you mean? Like, I'm a teacher at the time. I'm like, oh, it's really fun, like we love kids. And he was like, Man, they tried to do a technique, they rolled around on the floor, they didn't listen to me. I've never been so disheartened about anything in my life, and I'm never doing it again. And he never went back, he never taught another kid's class. And I think this is representative of where we get to sometimes, because we think that we have to teach kids the same way that we teach our adults, and it's just not the same. So, understanding that kids need play. They really, at the end of the day, they need play, they need engagement, they need fun. Because if something's not fun, why would they want to keep doing it? So, if we can keep them active and keep them moving and using games and big movements and lots of engaging fun, this is I truly, truly believe that this is the way that we should be teaching our kids jujitsu.

SPEAKER_00: 8:21

Yeah, I completely agree. And I can see that with the taekwondo that he does. And yeah, I mean, I I think this is the thing. So that the the the guys that do the taekwondo, they do exactly what you say. They're they're obviously very experienced in it. They pretty much they don't actually do that much taekwondo. I mean, they do a little bit of Korean, they do some punches and some kicks and a little bit of power, they engage the parents quite a lot, which is quite interesting. Um, but a lot of it is is game-based, and the reason that I I really enjoy taking them is because they cover a lot of behavioural stuff as well. So, you know, everything from sort of discipline and respect, they do like stranger awareness and those sort of things as well. They've got like the grading system, which is very lenient because it's for kids and they pretty much always get the belt regardless, unless they're really being naughty. But it you know, it seems to really engage the kids and do well. But um yeah, I don't know, it's a tough one with jujitsu because I I I've worked in fitness as well as is Danny. And even in fitness, like in gyms, like everybody just avoids doing the kids' classes like the plague, sadly, because they're they didn't come into fitness or jujitsu to work with children in the most case. And sometimes you're just trying to plug a hole with some somebody, aren't you? So I mean what like as as like a person, like what sort of attributes and uh stuff do you think you like need to work with kids? What sort of like what's the attitude, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_01: 9:44

Yeah, first thing you're gonna need is patience. Yeah, but like in all seriousness, I'm not that much of a patient person in most other areas of my life. But I think being patient with kids, like that's gonna be your number one thing. But I think when it comes down to it, you need to want to be able to be there for them. And when I say that, I mean the thing that I see happen is that, like you said, people kind of don't want to teach kids because the reality is that it's hard, it's not that easy, and it does require patience and it does require a different kind of skill set to what it does in the adults. And so the easiest thing to do as a gym owner is to chuck your bluebelt in there because you chuck your bluebelt in there, give them a free membership, they're free in the afternoon, they're keen to train because they're like your killer on the mats, they just want to be on the mats all the time. And there's nothing wrong with this because this is the reality of what we're dealing with, but the skills aren't there. And so when we talk about what I think the attributes of a good kids coach is going to be not just someone who knows how to communicate with kids with their level of language, but then how to take this level of language that you talk to with the kids and apply it to parents. So you could be fantastic with the kids and be like um confident with chatting to them, being funny. I think you need to be able to have a good sense of humor, understand that kids will literally be the most honest and horrific things sometimes and say things to you that you're like, if an adult said that, I'd be really offended. But yeah, can't be because it's just come from you and it's honest. And so having a, you know, a you know, what is it, water off a duck's back kind of attitude with kids, but being able to then really communicate with parents is what's going to be able to make you successful because you need to be able to have that rapport, that connection in having an adult relationship with them and the kids' relationship at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 11:50

Yeah, that's interesting. I was just thinking as we're talking, that's that's like um because see Danny's sitting there wanting to ask questions because he's his son's actively doing jujitsu at the moment. So I was just thinking that stick with like the young a lot for a minute, and then I'll pass over to Danny and he can bend your ear about how to teach teenagers because that's probably a completely different beast I imagine. Yeah. Okay, so I I guess like another thing with because I did I did have an experience that I'll just give you an anecdote that we can talk maybe talk around because it kind of leans into what you were just saying a little bit. So I did have an experience where I did take my son to a local jujitsu academy, so it wasn't our own, it was uh it was a different academy who are great and we we do know them quite well and that they're really good guys. It was a it was a mixed experience. So with my son at home, we've got some mats, so we do play games, so we uh you know sort of play a game where he's got to get past my legs and he's gotta get like get sort of like you know, chest to chest, or he'll get on my back and he has to stay there and I've got to try and shake him off, and we we play little games like that. So he's uh he's actually quite good at grappling. Um he's just not good at moves in jujitsu. And he's quite a big lad as well. So when we when I took him to this jujitsu academy recently, it was fairly recent, um he all he wanted to do was scrap with with people, so he just wanted to wrestle as he calls it, and just wanted to like throw down. And uh once he got into that, he really enjoyed it. But some of the the the the stuff that they were doing, they were doing a lot of animal-based movements and and things like that, and he seemed to kind of be switching off a little bit. They played a game called Sumo where they were on a crash matter to push each other off, so he really enjoyed that. And then they did some sparring, which I allowed him to do. And what I found is because it was mixed ages as well, especially at that age, they obviously development very diff they developed very differently. He he would start ragging around that's a British term, but you know, sort of out-grappling um some of the more experienced older kids because he was quite big and strong. And because we'd done a lot, he was out-grappling them, but then they'd get frustrated with him and hit him with like a jiu-jitsu move and shoulder lock him, and then he'd cry and get upset. And I found that quite tough because he was really enjoying the grappling and pinning kids down, but then they just yeah, hit him with like a a shoulder lock, not a bad one, they weren't being mean, they were just doing jujitsu. But he just got really upset. So yeah, I don't know. That was like the experience I had as a parent, and I guess some of the coaches, like a couple of them I knew very well, and they came over and spoke to me about it, but it was quite hard for me to like not jump in off the sidelines and try and interfere. So that was a lot of information there. I apologise, but you know, what are your thoughts on that as a scenario?

SPEAKER_01: 14:26

Yeah, there's a few things. What was the age range of the class?

SPEAKER_00: 14:31

It was quite broad, so the actual class was literally, I think, from four right through to maybe 12, but they'd split them into like different groups. So my kid was I think probably in like a four to seven bracket.

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

Yeah, a four-year-old is so developmentally different, even from a seven-year-old. And so I think even though they've split the classes, which is nice, first of all, if you are having like a four to twelve whatever years class, again, that's so broad. And I understand why people do this. It's usually it's to be able to save money and time because having extra classes means extra coaches, which means extra money that's being spent. Um, but it's detrimental to the actual children that are on your mats, which you have seen with your son. Because what then happens is they're put into an environment, even with someone who is seven, those kids are able to adapt to their environment in a different way and understand how to move their bodies in a different way to a much smaller child. And you said he's nearly six, right? Yeah, yeah. So even though he's had this experience in these games that he's been doing with you, which amazing, that's literally everything that I do, is the difference is that they would have been frustrated because those games are hard to actually get past. Like if you play in games where it's actually you're trying to not get past the legs, those kids are gonna develop guard retention really quickly and really well. And I've seen it myself in my own gym where other kids will come to my gym and they can't get past my kids' legs and they actually get really frustrated. And I think that uh what happens is that they can't get frustrated, like you said, they then throw in their jujitsu move. But I question why they would allow submissions or applying that kind of pressure in that particular environment. I, in especially in a sparring environment of a child that's just coming on your mats for the first time, you have no idea where they're at. Now, my kids don't spar from four to five. I they do games, we'll do all sorts of things that are leading up to them, but they might start back to back and they've got to try and pin their partner down. Maybe they'll start standing, they bring their partner down, they just want to get the leg over the belly. So there's always like a constraint. There's always a constraint as to what I'm actually doing with them. And they don't spar until they go into the six to nine years age range. And even on the days that I have a child, like your son, would step on my mats for the first time, they would do sparring, but there would be no submissions. And I would pick their partners based on them being able to adapt to the level of the kid. And I think that you've just got to be so careful because all it takes is that one kid to have that one bad experience and they're not coming back. And it's not intentional. No one is ever intentionally setting out for these things to happen, but it does, and it's something that we need to be aware of, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 17:37

Yeah, 100%. And um what what sort of um what what's the ratio of like like instructor to to kids that you typically have in a class?

SPEAKER_01: 17:47

I try to keep a one to four or one to five ratio.

SPEAKER_00: 17:51

Now that's really small, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:53

Yes. So in obviously, as the ages get a little bit older, my ratio is a little bit higher. I don't have a massive gym. I have um around 80 kids in my program at the moment, uh, which I mean is actually pretty good since we've only been over.

SPEAKER_03: 18:11

Yeah, in the UK, that is that's a very good program.

SPEAKER_01: 18:14

Yeah, so um, and that ranges from you know four all the way up to 15. But um I have kids' classes every day. So I have purposely put kids' classes of every age range every single day so that it spreads them out throughout the week. So then I don't end up with a class with like 35-year-olds on my mats because I think that's just not gonna work for me. But yeah, so what usually happens is I have three adults on the mats at any given time, and we cap our classes so that in the four to fives, I think it's around 12 that I allow. Um, my older age groups, my biggest age group, I think is 19 or 20. I can't quite remember. But even then, yeah, I try to sort of keep it at two doubles, three doubles max. I suppose it's one to six, really. Three doubles max that you are able to actually keep your eye on. Because when you're starting to use things like games and like a more live environment, things can go wrong so quickly. So you really do have to be a lot more on it in terms of supervision.

SPEAKER_00: 19:16

Yeah. So do you do you have um other sort of coaches that support you as a set of eyes in the room as well?

SPEAKER_01: 19:22

Yes, I do. And funny story, actually. Um, my assistant coach has probably watched every single one of your episodes.

SPEAKER_02: 19:32

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01: 19:34

He's obsessed. And when I told him that I was doing this, he's like, at the end, at the end, can you just shout me out? Like, just shout me out like a little bit. And I was like, all right, whatever. This is his moment, like you guys have asked for it, so he's gonna be so happy.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

Yeah, give him a shout out. What's what's their name?

SPEAKER_01: 19:49

So Dylan's gonna be very happy. Dylan, this is your moment. You got it.

SPEAKER_00: 19:52

Dylan, love you, mate. Keep watching. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01: 19:56

So he's um started with me in probably almost a year ago now, and he is a bluebelt as well, and he knew nothing about kids. And I think the first three months, I didn't hear him speak.

SPEAKER_02: 20:12

He was so nervous.

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

He didn't know how to talk to them. And I was like, just talk to them like people, like they're not aliens, like it's fine, just talk. And so he's my first assistant coach, and now I'm at the point where I'm really wanting to be able to step back a little bit from some of my kids' classes, and I want him to take charge of that. And I can't honestly, I can't be prouder of the way that he speaks to the kids and and the way that he's really taken on the role, particularly with my very youngest group, which is the one that I get so nervous leaving. He's very um, very kind, very caring, very supportive. So I have him, and then recently his brother has actually joined me as well. So his brother is now learning the exact same thing. Um, so both of them work with me, and then throughout the week, um, my partner Huffer will also jump on the mats uh for different age grain, like different age range classes and things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:09

Yeah, it just made me think then as you as you were talking about like Dylan's experience there, because I just think back to before I was a parent. So I never grew up around like kids. I didn't have any younger siblings or nieces or nephews or anything. So prior to having my own child, I was terrified of them. Like I didn't know how to talk to them, I didn't know how to act around them. Like it's I think for for people that have always been around kids, they almost take it for granted. But actually, if you haven't been, it's it's really difficult, especially when they're other people's kids, because you just don't know what you're meant to be doing, like how you're meant to behave. So I found that once I had my own child, it made it much easier to then interact with other children because I was used to interacting with my own.

SPEAKER_02: 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:48

Do you like I I don't know if like Dylan and his brother have like children or or around kids, but do you feel that like that's a necessity for coaches of children to have been around children before getting into it? Otherwise, it feels like quite a hard, a sharp learning curve. I think sometimes it's a personality type.

SPEAKER_03: 22:05

Yeah, for sure. You gotta have a certain personality type to work with children. Some people cannot cope with it, can they? They can't cope with other people's children, let alone their own, sometimes. So I think it's definitely a personality type.

SPEAKER_00: 22:15

But I almost feel like I could possibly work with kids now because I've got my own. Whereas before, like, no way, not in a million years.

SPEAKER_03: 22:21

Yeah, I've worked I've worked with teenagers and that was a nightmare. I hated that. But I was I was fairly good at it, but I just I don't know. I think it's a difference between being able to do it. I could put a mask on and do it, but I don't massively enjoy it. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:35

Yeah, it is really hard. It's uh I mean I grew up with younger siblings, so I was pretty lucky that I had that experience. And I guess, yeah, you're right, Paul. Like I really hadn't even thought about that myself and and the the privilege that I've already had and the exposure that I've had to be around kids just growing up. And I definitely had never intended to get into education or teaching. That was like the last of my ideas. I don't even know how I ended up doing that, but uh you know, the experience that I've had, I definitely, definitely think has shaped the way that I'm interacting with kids. And I do see it with parents that they are, I don't know, a bit more relaxed. They kind of just they realize that kids, you know, how to talk to them a little bit. And uh Dylan and his brother are quite young, they're sort of 23 and 20 or something like that. Like they're young and they don't, they have younger siblings, but really that's it. They've not had that exposure. And so even when you're a young person, even I think if you had siblings, being put in a position where you're like now the coach and you're like the authority person for these people that these mini people that you're trying to like grow, but then you've got the parents sitting on the side, like eyeballing you, being like, What are you doing with my kid? I can understand how overwhelming and scary that must feel because I'm I was like, I'm pretty experienced in what I do, and even then sometimes I can feel like eyes in the back of my head, and I'm like, all right, who's looking at me? Who wants to know what I'm doing? So I do think that having kids makes a difference, and having experience with kids 100% makes a huge difference. But I don't think that that's the end of it. You definitely can develop the skill.

SPEAKER_00: 24:24

Yeah, no, I'm sure. And then just going back to your your class structure, so working with that that age group, so sort of under sevens maybe, or the younger kids, what would like a typical class look like? So how long do you run the class for? And can you give us some examples of the types of games and activities that you would run during that session?

SPEAKER_01: 24:44

Yes, absolutely. Uh so I run a four to five uh age group, and then I have a six to nine years age group. I probably could put that to three to five, but I don't know. I I like the four to five, to be honest. I like that age range, but I've just kept it for myself as my own personal thing. And if we're talking about my four to fives, my classes are 30 minutes long. So research shows that the child's ability to actually take information and focus on something is around two to three times their age. So if you've got a four-year-old, you really don't have that long. So if you've got a four-year-old, you have around 12 to 15 minutes of fully focused, engaged attention. But that's not all at once. You're never gonna see a four-year-old, five-year-old sit for 15 minutes. That's over the course of my entire class. So I've built the reason for my classes like this, and the reason they're 30 minutes is based on my understanding of how long children can actually remain engaged for. So typically my classes will be we jump on the mats, we say hello. Sometimes I even have like jujitsu books that I like to just have a like a little flick through before the class starts, teach them a Portuguese word if I can, how's your day? What's been going on, that kind of thing. Make them feel really welcome, really supported. And then we start, and I will always do like a big movement game to start. So this could be anything as simple as um like a musical statues freeze game. So maybe they're running, they're dancing, the music stops, they freeze, they all know musical statues, but then I'm gonna give them a movement that I want to them to do. So I'll be like, sprawl, and then they'll do their sprawl, and then they'll go break full, and then they'll do their breakful. But like when I apply these things, it's because I've already given them that prior knowledge of what this is and why they're doing it. Um, so whenever I have new kids come in, we don't just be like sprawl and then just hope that they know what they're doing. So it's always like it's set up for this particular thing. So I run that for maybe like four minutes, five minutes, just like depend it. And the number one thing for kids is like adaptability and just knowing that you could plan the perfect class in your head and you walk in and it's a full moon, and those kids are just not going to do anything that you're asking. So when I say like my class, you know, my warm-up is three minutes, sometimes it can be four minutes, it just depends how much I need them to run before I get them to sit down. So they run, they dance, they do big movement, then they come and sit down in the middle, and we do our first jujitsu game. So I use CLA to teach my kids, and we are using a very simplified version of CLA. So essentially at this age, they can really only have one goal at a time. They can't recognize, so if you've got like two kids and they both have a different goal, that they're not able to see the other person doing their goal while they're trying to think about what they're trying to achieve, if that makes sense. So, really, it's one goal, they're both trying to do the same thing, or you know, you understand that yeah, you can give two goals, but really it's not gonna work that well. So dirty feet is like my favorite example I use for everything. And it's similar exactly to what you were talking about before, Paul, is trying to get past the legs. So I will give them a story. I love storytelling, and I think this is the part that gets kids really like engaged and having fun with things. I'll be like, okay, I want you to imagine that you have really, really dirty feet. So you're laying on the back, you've got your legs up. You've got really, really dirty feet. You went outside today, you jumped in muddy putties, uh, in muddle muddy puddles, and you know, then maybe you stood in dog poo and ooh, your feet are really stinky and gross. And now you want to put those really, really gross feet on your partner and your partner standing in front of you, and then I like will action, obviously keeping guard all the time. And then I'll be like, your partner in front is like, that's disgusting. I want to get rid of those. They're gonna hold on to those legs and they're gonna push those legs away and they're gonna get you. And they wanna get so if they can get inside past your legs, then they win the game. So essentially, all it's doing is just teaching guard retention. They try and keep their leg in front, the other kids trying to push, they get chest to chest, it's fun, it's silly, and they love it. And so we'll do maybe two games, two jujitsu focus games, and then I'll have another break. So I like to call them brain breaks. It's the same thing that I was taught when I was teaching, is that it's literally just a break for your brain. They need to move again. So no matter what I'm doing, I will then do another big movement game. And they're always like a little bit jujitsu-related, but mainly they're focused on let's just kind of get some energy out, let's run, let's dance, let's jump, whatever it is that I need to do. Then I'll bring them back, we'll do another one. And then the class usually ends with, I don't know, it's something really silly. It's like a red light, green light, or something that they love. They have this one game that they love. And it's honestly, I look at it, I'm like, man, if someone was filming this, I'd almost be embarrassed. Because there's literally just like a massive battle rope, like a tug-of-war rope, and they're just going along it like a balance beam. And then they're balancing on this thing, and I'm on the ground pretending to be a crocodile and knocking the monkeys off the tree, and that's the whole thing. And I could say to them any jujitsu game, and they'll be like, I want to play the crocodile game. And I'm like, I have so much to give you, but that's what you want, and that's okay. So usually, you know, we end with something silly like that, we say our goodbyes, and and that's it. Like, I don't overcomplicate it. Three jujitsu games maximum for every other three to four minutes. And it is my class, my um, my games run for like three to four minutes maximum before they start losing focus. And that's it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

I love it. I love that. When you were talking about the games and like the um the storytelling, I I my son would absolutely love that. It's so good. I think most kids would, wouldn't they? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and when you were talking about the uh red, light, green lights, so at Taekwondo, they play uh they call it Hannah Dul set threes, which is basically the same thing. And my kid loves that as well, and it's just like a really good finisher for them. Um so yeah, that that's awesome. And with um that age group, like if you get them from like four for two years until they go into that six to nine bracket, like what are you hoping in that time that they like they learn? So, as if you've had them for the entire period, they start when they're four, and now they're going into that older group. Like, what are like the learning objectives? What are you hoping they can do as they go into that older group?

SPEAKER_01: 31:29

Yeah, so I've actually just sort of gone through this myself. Like I said, my gym has been open for two years. So actually, I've had four or five of my younger kids start to move up into that, into that older group. And all I want them to understand are the concepts. I and they don't understand the concept, they don't know what a concept is, but I I know that I've taught it. So basically, the idea of let's get past the legs. That's you know one of the most important concepts that we need. Whenever someone's back's on the floor, I want you to get past them. How do you hold them down? How are you like a crocodile that's trying to swallow its drag? It sounds horrible when I talk. I've very I've noticed that uh when I use analogies, they're very Australian. And then other people are like, why are you talking about crocodiles dragging their food down into the water and spinning? That's or sharks, sharks that are eating people. Like this is not normal people stuff in the rest of the world. I'm like, yeah, okay, we probably have a few things that like to kill us. So we it gets a bit weird.

SPEAKER_00: 32:35

More than a few.

SPEAKER_01: 32:37

But that's the concepts that I get them to think about is like, how can I hold someone down and not let them get back up? How can I get past the legs so that I can hold someone and not let them get back up? How can I hold on to someone's back? So keeping they know what chest to back connection is. Even in my four to fives class, they know. If I said to you, what are you keeping? They know chest to back connection. If I then said, you know, what do you want to do when you're standing? They know that the concept is I want to bring my partner down. How do you bring someone down? Well, I can pick up a leg or I can grab two legs. Perfect. So if I know that they then have all of this conceptual understanding of what's going on, and then it's wrapped up into like a theme or a game, once they get into my older class, they already know how to do sparring. They already know what to do. They just don't know the submissions yet, and they don't understand the putting it all together. But if I'm sort of saying to them, okay, pick up a leg and bring them down, they know what to do. Let's play dirty feet, they know what to do. I want you to go sharks and surfers, they know to get to mount. Like they have that conceptual understanding. So that is everything that I hope for when I'm sort of bringing my classes and bringing my kids up in the next age group, is just that they know what to do, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 33:56

I think it's enjoyment as well, isn't it? Wait as a as an art as a parent, that's all I'd look for is are they enjoying it? Are they learning a little bit? Yeah, but at their age, are they enjoying it? Are they keeping themselves like fit and healthy? You know, are they safe? You know, are they having fun? And I think that's a big part some some parents miss at times where you know they want their child to be a world champion from age five, and it just it doesn't really work like that, you know. They've got to develop and they've got to enjoy it themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

Yeah, it's a really good point because you need them in that period to to to I guess not fall in love, maybe the wrong term, but really get engaged with jujitsu and really want to keep doing it, right?

SPEAKER_03: 34:29

Yeah, it's it, and it's about enjoyment for a child. They they don't they don't care about any of that stuff, do they? Essentially all they care about is uh are they having fun? That's it. You know, and that's all I'd look for as an as a parent. You know, I I would have loved it if uh you know you were you were teaching that to my son at age five, you know. I would I'd I'd absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_01: 34:48

Yeah, and that's what I want. As soon as I see my kids on the mats, I just want them to be laughing and having fun. I don't really care that much about the skill of jujitsu at these particular age ranges. Of course, as they get older, it's important for them to know how to do jujitsu. But at this point, I just want them to have fun and laugh. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 35:10

But realistically, what would they learn at that age? You know, they they'd it'd be so, you know, they wouldn't take it in. You they wouldn't take it in, you know. I just want to show them like X-Card. But you see it though. That's the funny thing. You do see some academies trying to teach five years or six-year-olds X-Card or complex moves. And if you actually watch them do it, they have no clue what they're doing. They're just rolling around on the floor messing around, and then they get towed off for messing around. Yeah, you know, so it's like it's actually not their fault, it's the instructor's fault.

SPEAKER_01: 35:42

And then it's so stressful for the instructor and the coach, and then they're worried why they're like wondering why they're going home feeling stressed and overwhelmed. And it's because you've just tried to do something that's never gonna work anyway, and then you're questioning yourself. Like at the end of the day, if you just make it fun and and engaging for the kids, you're gonna feel better too. Like you'll have more fun.

SPEAKER_03: 36:04

Even if you think of like jujitsu as like a school curriculum, you know, you don't you don't learn algebra when you're five years old. It's uh it's a process to get to that point, isn't it, for when you're 16 to take your GCSEs or whatever it is in Australia. But it's it's definitely a process, and I think teaching teaching children stuff too soon, they definitely just and they're not they're not going to enjoy it. And then that's probably why retention in a lot of academies is so poor. It's because they go there, they're bored, they don't know what's going on. Because I get a lot of kids as well, they don't understand the benefit of it. They're like, What's going on? He's like this this guy this this lad's just hugging me.

SPEAKER_01: 36:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 36:41

Yeah, it's definitely true. And then sort of jumping up then, so six to nine. Um you know, so like looking at my my lad now, as I say, he's quite big. Um but I you know look at nine-year-olds, and uh there isn't necessarily like a huge like physical change. I mean, obviously they they continue to grow, but like just even seeing him from like five to six, like mentally his you know, his ability to rationalise and and uh you know be creative is is uh so different even in a year. So I imagine like even if not physically like a huge change, and I I guess that happens more in the teenagers, which we'll come on to in a bit with Danny's kids, but I feel like just cognitively there's going to be a massive shift in that period. And of course you will get sort of big size differences as well. So it'd be interesting to hear a little bit about how you manage that age group in regard to I guess what you're teaching them, sort of considering that that width of kind of cognitive ability, and also how you manage maybe different sizes in a room as well.

SPEAKER_01: 37:40

Yeah, so I have my six to nines, I also have the nine to fifteen, and I've kept the nine as that overlap for that particular reason because you can be nine and you can still be quite small, but you can be nine and you can be like massive. So I think that you know, as soon as they get to that nine, and maybe they don't have as much opportunity for partnering in that lower age range, I just bump them up. It's much easier. They're gonna have more fun, it's gonna be a lot easier, and that kind of takes out that issue. Uh and that's something that's really important that I always speak to parents when they're like, oh, my son's eight, but he's turning nine soon. And I'm like, okay, yeah, yes, we have age ranges. Yes, they are important, but I need to know where your child is at as an individual before we make decisions about things. Because just because you know, your child is the right age for something, are they actually feeling okay about this next change? How do they even want to process that kind of information themselves? So that's the first part. But I think that the difference between my four to fives is definitely submissions I introduce in my six to nines. And I do still use storytelling, but I would say that it's not as prevalent in the same way. So the names of the game still remain the same. The concepts of the game still remain the same, but I'm obviously maturing it for them. I'm not still sort of in my eight-year-olds and telling them that they've got to try and lock the dragon now, guys, and lock your legs up like this. Like, if I talk to them like that, they're they're not gonna be engaged because they're gonna think that it's too kiddish for them, even at that age, 100%. And so the game still remains the same, the concept still remains the same, but the language changes. But what really changes is their ability to move and read their environment. It is just the coolest thing to see two kids just scrap it out, and they're like, they don't even know what they're doing. And it's like, how are you doing Delaheva? And you don't even know what Dela Eva here Delaheva is. It's just beautiful to watch these kids train in the way that they do when they're provided an opportunity to just explore grappling through their environment rather than I need you to put your hand here and I need you to move your body here. And it just takes away that rigid part of jujitsu that I think sometimes kids get a bit stuck because now they're thinking about all of the possibilities and they're just going for it. It's just the best thing. And I think that is the biggest thing that I see the change because in my four to fives, they're still kind of navigating how to move their bodies, they're a little bit unsure about how to sit on top of somebody because the reality is we're told our entire lives to keep our hands off each other. And you know, hands to yourself at school, it's always hands off, hands to yourself. Even now it's like, can I give you a hug? Is something that we in society allow our children to have that permission and that autonomy to make the decisions of being touched, which I advocate for 100%. But then we stick them on the mat and it's like, right, sit on top of them. And I was like, What do you mean you want me to sit on top of this person? This is very odd. And so when they're still little, they're kind of looking at me like, why am I sitting on them? Whereas then as they get that bit older and they hit that six to seven years, they start to understand why they're sitting on someone. And it's like, yeah, well, if I sit on you, I pin you down and I have more control of you. And then it takes away that weird awkwardness that they kind of get about how to move their bodies, and that's where I really see jujitsu start to develop.

SPEAKER_00: 41:48

Yeah, amazing. And with the introduction of submissions, um, this is going to be a two-part question, actually. So with the introduction of submissions, I guess, like actually a three-part question. So first, what am I going to do? So first, this this is an easy one, but just just just bear with me. So, first, are there submissions that you don't teach at that age? And then how do you kind of like teach them how far to take the submissions? And then the third part was going thinking about school and outside of the off the mats, like how do you stop them trying to strangle a child in the school playground? So there's your three parts.

SPEAKER_01: 42:30

Okay. All right, let's start with number one, which you're gonna have to repeat to me again because I have the memory of a goldfish.

SPEAKER_00: 42:37

Yeah, was the are there certain submissions that you don't teach them at that age?

SPEAKER_01: 42:40

Yes, of course. Okay, in in six to nines in particular, this when I'm beginning to introduce submissions. Yeah. Okay. So I do, I mean, I'm not teaching them heel hooks, but not yet. But but no, they learn like the basic ones that they would be allowed to do in a general competition. So your Americana, the armbar, the triangle without the head pulling, um renaked choke. Uh, some of my kids who are competitor kids, like they like to compete, they do also know how to do an Ezekiel and a guillotine. But in the training room, if they're training with kids who are also not competitors, they don't use those. So they're only allowed to use those particular submissions with kids who understand those particular submissions and how to defend them. Um part two, go for it. What was it again, sorry?

SPEAKER_00: 43:37

So that so that was in the training room. How do you teach them, I guess, control and safety around applying submissions?

SPEAKER_01: 43:44

Yeah, 100%. And this is something that gets asked a lot, especially when you're using games, um, because the idea of it is that you're meant to be having that live resistance all of the time. And so we break it down really small. And sometimes we will even like reverse engineer something. So I will put them locked up into the submission, and I will just say to their partner, uh, you know, the person who's applying the submission, we're just gonna very, very gently start to say, like you're doing an arm bar, for example. All right, we're gonna be sitting up in the position, you're going to very, very gently start to lay down, holding onto the arm once that arm is nice and straight, then we're gonna lift our bottom up, and as soon as they lift that bottom up and that arm's nice and straight, I want your partner to do a big tap. I don't really care if the armbar is not perfectly executed. If the arm is straight and they lift their hips, then it's fine by me. If they're doing comps, we worry about that later. So at that point, lift the hip, lay down, arms straight, legs are there, we're good to go. So they will very gently start to do this. But before they learn the submission, they learn the control of the submission. So, for example, uh a rear-naked choke. Let's go to the back. So we have two hooks in, we've got seatbelt. The goal of the person would be to use their arm to caterpillar crawl their arm all the way to the back of the shoulder. And if they can get their arm all the way to the back of the shoulder here, they win the game. So what it's basically doing is it's almost giving you the submission. But then the person who's defending, their goal is to try and just keep two arms. They're not trying to escape, they're just trying to stop that person from getting that arm all the way there. And then once they have their arm there, usually, I mean, you can you can almost make them tap from there. But then what I will do is I will show them how to finish. And I think that this is the part that gets a little bit like, yeah, but aren't you playing with games or what are you doing with this? But at the end of the day, I need to know that my kids are gonna know when to tap and do it safely, but also that the child knows how to apply the right pressure. And I'm not giving a lot of details, I'm not trying to overcomplicate it, but what I'll just say is like, okay, you've got this nice position here. This is really good. Let's get that arm right here, and then I just want you to put the hand behind the neck. And then they get there, and then I'll be like, okay, let's gently start to squeeze. And your partner, when you feel it, I don't want little fairy claps, I don't want little fairy things, I want a big, big tap, and your partner will let go straight away. And I haven't actually had any issues with this in the whole time that I've been running the gym. So the only time I've ever had anything is like the first time a child gets choked and they cry because it's weird. Like no one likes to be choked, but what are the what are you doing to me? But otherwise, I haven't really had an issue with that. Um, what was part three? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 46:46

Part three was about, I guess, boundaries. So, so for example, my my partner is is a doctor and doesn't do combat sports, so it's like the complete opposite to me, basically. And we often, we've not, we've not argued, but we've had conversations around our son learning martial arts and combat sports, and she has concerns about in the playground or outside of the martial arts academy or off the mat. How do we know he's not gonna punch a kid in the face or try and take them down or strangle them? How do we how do we teach them new boundaries?

SPEAKER_01: 47:18

Yeah, so this is something that needs to be the absolute foundation of your program. And funnily enough, I actually had to have this conversation with some kids today in my four to fives class. I got a text message from one of my mums who was like, Ellie, um, such and such and such and such who trained together, they're friends. Uh, they took each other down at Kimby last week, and the teacher got mad because they used jujitsu at school. And I was like, okay, cool. Well, we'll deal with this. So I sat them down and I was like, asked the uh one of our black belts who was there, and I was like, um, do you use jiu-jitsu on the streets? Like, do you use jujitsu outside, like outside of the mats? And my black belt professor was like, Oh no, no, I would not do that. It's like, oh, okay, do you use it at school? And he's like, looked at me because he had no idea what I was getting at here. And I was like, he's like, no, I don't use it at school. And I was like, oh, do you do jujitsu on someone who doesn't know jujitsu? And he was like, no, of course not. I was like, okay, so the mats is like a special place. Think of it like your special home where you can come to do all of your jujitsu. But when you're not on those mats, we don't use our jiu-jitsu on people who don't know jujitsu. Unless you really, really, really have to. And this was four to five, so I was like, I'm not even gonna get into why you really, really have to. But like they've kind of set the tone already of we don't use it at school. Jiu Jitsu is a safe place for you to on the mats. The mats are soft enough for you, they're not soft at school. And when you do those things, some people don't understand what jujitsu is, and that's when you can get into trouble because they don't know what you're doing. And the kids were just like, Cool. I don't think they really understood, but you know what I mean. Like, yeah, okay, sure, no worries. Can we play the next game? So that's how I handle it every single time. It's just a conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 49:11

Yeah, no, amazing. That makes sense. That's that's helpful to know. Thank you. Um, I've got a couple more bits, but they kind of relate to all ages. So I'll let Danny speak to you about his kid and maybe sort of the next age up. And he can pick your brains in regards to how to make his uh his kid as good as possible. And then we'll uh we'll finish up with a couple of bits that I've got for you.

SPEAKER_03: 49:29

So yeah, so Jack's Jack's 13 and he's been training jujitsu on and off for I don't know, I'd say a couple of years, but for probably 18 months of that two years, maybe no, maybe maybe over a year or that two years, he wasn't that interested. When um when he first started jujitsu, there wasn't many kids his own age, and that was a huge problem. So he was either going against kids that were uh children that were 15, 16, and he was 12, and then he was just getting battered, and then he hated it. Um or he was against kids that were way younger than him because there was just not enough people in the class. That was that was a big issue when he first joined. Is it is does that ever happen to you, or is because now your academy's like growing and growing and growing, that really is never an issue. And if that does happen, like how do you combat that? Like, I I struggled with it because I really I want him obviously to do jujitsu and I know the benefits of it. Um but it's hard for me to say, go there every week, and then he's got a 15-year-old who's been doing jujitsu for a little while, strangling him, and he's not uh not able to rely on.

SPEAKER_01: 50:35

Yeah, yeah, that's really hard, and it is something that I have faced uh particularly in the beginning of our academy because I found teenagers probably from like the ages of 10 upwards, very, very difficult to get to train jujitsu. And I think maybe it was a cultural thing as well. Um, rugby is such a big part of our culture in Australia, whether it's rugby league, rugby union, um, you know, all of those codes really dominate our sporting scene. And so jujitsu is kind of still, it's obviously growing a lot, but it's still not considered something that you would put your kid in that often. And so it was very challenging to get kids of that age, and when I did, I would have the same problem where it would be like I'd have a 13-year-old kid come in and then they're partnered with a nine-year-old, and that kind of sucks because they can't train properly, it feels a bit kiddish, and then the kid that's 13 drops out because why would they want to keep training with little kids, even though they're not little, but like they feel little, and so we would have to we would have to train and jump on the mats. So it would generally then be one of us as the coach having to step on and train with with the older child so that we were able to obviously control our intensity to make sure that it's meeting the level of the kid. And we did this for a few months, and then all it took was one other kid to show up on the same day that the other kid was there, and I was like, see, see, there are kids like you, there are others, and then they would stay. And now my 9 to 14 or 9 to 15 age group is predominantly kids over the age of 12. So I have this fantastic group of kids that are there training, but it has taken me a year to build that, and it's purely just because our academy was new, but I do think the type of training also has a huge part to do with it as well. Uh, if you go and do footy training, you get to do your tackles and you know, you're learning those skills. If you come to jujitsu and it you're not kind of feeling like you're getting anything anything out of it in terms of movement, like kids, they want to take each other down, essentially. They just want to tackle each other to the ground, and that's the best part of jujitsu for most of my teenage kids because it's a space where they can. And so when they're finally allowed a space to do that and it's safe, then they're stoked, they want to stay, they want to keep training. But I think that I have created a space using games and CLA that if I had a child like your son, and the only option for them would to be a goal against someone who's 16 or 15, and puberty is the hormone, it's huge, it's such a huge difference in strength and understanding of everything. Just add different constraints to that child. So I think that if you are able to then understand how to use games in an effective way and scale your games effectively, you can have kids of different sizes training together because you just change the way that the the more experienced, the more advanced child is engaging with the other child. And so it doesn't mean that they're going easier. Maybe they just have a different goal to achieve that's more advanced or more challenging while your child while your son is still able to work on exactly where they're at. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03: 54:34

Yeah, yeah, no, it does make perfect sense. I think I think that's the issue as well, is exactly what you said. Like when you have kids from different age ranges and obviously different sizes as well, it makes it incredibly difficult to match people up. My son now has lots of training partners, and the academy is the child programme has grown quite a lot. So he he's completely given up football now and he just focused on jujitsu, he loves it that much, which is which is great. But the amount of people that have kind of come and gone in that time is like huge. And I don't think it's much to do with the coaches or the environment because I think it's actually really, really good. I feel it's probably just um I don't know, like jujitsu in general is very hard to teach to one to teenage boys in particular because of their ego. That's one of the big things I find is the ego is is so big, especially to a lad going through puberty, like they just cannot accept losing. And the frustration on some of these lads' uh faces at times is like it's like crazy. Um my boy recently done his first competition and he was against uh the age bracket was 13 to 15, and he was against two 15-year-olds and a 14-year-old. So it was it was so evident to see that my my son is just coming into PewB and they were fully developed. And the the difference in in the the the size and strength was like massive. But my my point is is there was there was other children there in the similar age bracket, and when they were uh winning, you know, they were throwing a kid on the floor, they were just getting in a more straight away, they were winning, it was great. And then as soon as they come up against someone who was you know a bit bigger or better than them, they threw their toys out the proud. Like 13, 14, 15-year-old lads were like going mental, trying to fight people, telling parents to swear at them. It just got like kind of really out of control. And I know that from that competition, because they they didn't win, they've just they've just quit completely. And my question is, how do you how do you mitigate that and how do you deal with that as a coach, and how do you deal with that as you know with the parents? Because it's such a difficult thing to do uh to you know to to control a 13 to 15 year old lad, teach them about respect and and you know keep them on the the straight. And now it's it's alright for me with my son as such because I understand jiu-jitsu and I try and uh pass my knowledge on to him about jujitsu, but I think with parents that don't understand jiu-jitsu, you know, you you you get the parents that are just oh, you just just stand up, you know what I mean? Like, and uh yeah, it's just really difficult. How do you mitigate stuff like that as a elder?

SPEAKER_01: 57:16

Yeah, it is really, really hard, and I think that like you said, puberty is such a big factor in this too, uh, as well as you know, different cultures I think play a huge role in this too. And like I spoke about, you know, the culture of football being such a big thing in Australia, and so you know, even just that in general changes the way that kids interact with jujitsu as well. But you know, religion can change the way that we interact and the way that we understand things, um, our upbringing. There's so many factors that just aren't even on the mats that contribute and that we can't control. I have no idea what happens when a child goes home. I don't know the life that they're living, and I can only really deal with what I have in front of me. And I'm never perfect, and I can't always get that right either. Because how am I to know exactly what someone's feeling? But I do try to create a space at the heart of my program where my kids feel safe to just talk. So I think that if I was dealing with kids with such a big ego, which I agree, like it happens because hormones are huge. And particularly even just before they start to change, obviously a little bit younger, but boys training with girls in competition, uh, you know, they're sometimes still doing that even up until age 11.

SPEAKER_03: 58:51

I was I was gonna ask you about something about that in a minute, but that'll be my question.

SPEAKER_01: 58:55

Yeah, yeah. And so that in itself is a whole lot of hormones against going against a girl, and you don't want to let a girl in. So I think that it changes everything. But if you can set at the heart of your program a safe space where your kids can feel emotion and share emotion safely, that is so important. We're raising not just girls, we're raising boys, we're raising men in our training rooms, and we need to raise them that they feel safe to share what's actually going on in their world and what's going on in their mind. And if I have a kid on my mat that's losing their shit every single time they're losing, what is happening in their world that makes them feel that they have to win everything?

SPEAKER_02: 59:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:49

Is it, you know, what is and I can't know all of those answers. But what I can do is I can create the environment where I can sort of pull them aside and be like, hey man, like, what's going on? You know, and I've had boys cry because they're just like, oh, I've just had like a really bad week at school and my friend was really mean about this. And for us, that's so trivial. That's not even anything that matters, but for them, it's their whole world. And if they're already at school being beaten down about not being the best at something, and then they're going home and they're trying really hard at home, but maybe their parents are fighting, or you know, something horrible is happening in their world, and then they're getting on our mats and they're not winning and they're losing, they feel terrible. And it's easy for us to be like, Matt, cut your ego out, leave your ego at the door. But like a 15 year old's not intentional. Intentionally having an ego, they're just trying to deal with all of these big emotions and hormones and all of these things. Yeah, me either. I was horrible, by the way.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:56

Unaware of what I was like.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:58

Yeah, terrible human for me. Like, I would hate to have been on the mats. I would have cried every two seconds. And so, like, how do we expect kids to adult when we don't give them an experience to be able to adult? This is their training ground. Yeah, Jiu Jitsu is the key of how they're doing this, but we have to show them how to do that.

unknown: 1:01:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:24

Yeah. The um the other thing that we've really struggled with is him training with girls. So when he again, this is a little bit different, but in MMA, he struggles a little bit more because they do like an MMA class on a Monday, um, which he absolutely loves. Um, but a few times he'll get paired up with like a girl of similar age, maybe sometimes a little bit bigger than him. And one of the things that he's come home and said to me, he said, Dad, I really struggle today. He said, Because she's punching me full on in the face, right? He said, But I can't punch her back. Like, if I punch her back like she punches me, like what you know I mean, like I'm gonna really hurt her. He said, But I don't want to say anything to the coach. He said, Because I don't want to look like a pussy, so he's like, I don't know what to do, and like I've had her quite word and stuff, and it's kind of sorted itself out. But at the time, he that was the biggest concern he had was hurting her, but she was like dinging him really hard, and he was like, I don't know what to do with your dad. He was like, Help, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:27

Well, first of all, well done for raising a son that doesn't want to punch a girl as hard as he's punching, you know, like yeah, that's that's what I said.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:34

I say that it he is a he is a very nice boy. Yeah, he is a very nice lad. That's why I think jujitsu in martial arts is really important for him.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:42

I don't even know if I have an answer for that because I've not trained MMA. But and I I can't imagine how difficult it must actually be. Yeah, we have this conversation quite often in jujitsu with girls training with boys, and like I was speaking about competition in particular, where boys don't want to lose to girls. And I mean, I don't blame them, but the girl wants to go hard too. And so, how first of all, I think that the timing and the age range of when they are splitting this is just so wrong. That you should not be having 11-year-old boys and girls competing against each other. It's just too different in hormones, it shouldn't be happening. Uh, I would love to see a change happen with this. But I also understand why it happens because if you split it, are the girls gonna have enough fights? Are they, you know, are they gonna be people for them to compete with? I think we're getting to a point now where there are enough girls and women in jujitsu that you you could have these divisions and they could be safely done. I know obviously IBJGF is a little bit different in how they split their age ranges and things like that for this. But, you know, we're we're taught how to treat girls and women in the training room, even in our adults' class. It can be very uncomfortable for people, and it can be uncomfortable for so many different reasons. And I'm very grateful and very thankful that I've always been in a space where I've felt very supported and um encouraged, and I've always had great training partners. But I know that this isn't the case for everyone, and I think that I can't answer this for boys because I'm not a man and I don't have that experience. And all I know is that when the men that I train with, they're so respectful in how they train. But me as the person receiving this training understand that if they wanted to sit on me and smash me with all of their weight, they could realistically, like I'm not delusional in thinking that this 90 kilo brown belt, I'm winning. I'm not. I know that. But I can try, and I like that they give me that skill set and allow me the space to do that. And I suppose if your son felt even comfortable to talk to the girl and be like, hey, I love the way you train with me because I respect how hard you hustle. I respect that you train hard with me. And I never want you to feel like you can't train hard with me. But I just want you to know that I don't want to hurt you because I respect you. And see what she says. She was much, she might be like, Oh you pussy, hit me hard up. Like, you know, you never know like what she might come back with. But I think give her the opportunity to speak on it too and be like, how does she feel about having to train with a guy? Does she like punching your son repeatedly?

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:59

Well, this is what I said to him. I said, Have you spoken to her about it? And he was like, Yeah, he's like, I'll tell I'll tell her to calm down a little bit. He said, and then she calms down for like the rest of that session, maybe. He said, Next week, you start sparring and she dings me again. But it's um it was just it was it was just a point my wife made. She said, if that's the other way around, it's a huge problem. If that's the boy hitting a girl hard regularly, it's a huge problem. But it was just such a such an odd thing to deal with as a parent.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:27

I was a bit like, oh, what'd I do here? Yeah, my my thoughts on this, because I've I've done a lot of striking martial arts over the years, and I've I've sparred in Muay Thai and boxing with females like many, many times. And and for me, I I guess as a as a male doing that, I've always just approached it like I was spying with a smaller, smaller guy. You know, I learned very quickly that females in combat sports are very, very good and very, very dangerous, and you need to like respect their skill. But typically they, especially for me being a bigger guy, they aren't going to be as powerful. But it's very similar to spying with a smaller guy who again is very, very dangerous regarding a skill, but probably can't pack the same sort of power. So that's in regard to my mindset, how I always approached it. I almost like took gender out of the the equation and just looked at them like a smaller person and sparred them how I would, regardless of their gender. Um but the first time I spy with a female, she she did get cross with me because I was going really easy on her, and she said like something along the lines of like don't take the piss. I'm not I'm not like frail, I I can fight. And I was like, That's so difficult though, isn't it? It's so difficult.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:32

Even with jujitsu, even with jujitsu, it's so difficult as a man or even as a woman, but as a man especially, especially being bigger, like if you're fighting a 60 kilo, well not fighting like spine, like rolling with a 60 kilo girl, like you just are it's so different because you will get some some females who are super feisty, they want you to go a bit harder, they want like the test, and then you get other females like where they just they just don't want that, they don't want uh um feel that pressure or feel you know uh any sort of like you know, like just being a bit like how I'd roll with you, you'd never roll with them, if that makes sense. So it's just it's just a like it feels like sometimes it's a bit of a minefield. I know uh I know a few professional grapplers who refuse to roll with females now because they've had a few instances where they've been called out or they've you know maybe gone too hard because they're rolling against other professional female grapplers and then they go hard and they go hard, but it just gets a bit like you know, a bit, you know, it's just a minefield.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:32

Yeah, it is. I think it's really difficult. And like you said, every woman is different. And even the way that I train with some of my other people in my room compared to some of my training with my partner is different. You know, the level of uh relationship or rapport that you have with someone can also change the way that you grapple with them. Uh, I know even again, my assistant coach, like Bloody Dylan, I have to be like, Matt, can you just go a little bit harder? And he's like, I am. I'm like, you're really not. Like, I need you to okay. And then he smashes me for a bit, and I'm like, all right, fine, you you won, like, you get it. But I think that yeah, it's such a difficult conversation because every single person will have a different perspective on how they want to be treated on the mats, and so then I think it's very difficult to know what to do.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:30

There's no set rules or syllabus or anything, and uh yeah, yeah. I don't know. I I never know what the answer is for that. I think you just gotta take each individual, you know, as they are, and just you know, try and read the room a little bit. But I think the problem with jujitsu is the tism, you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of people that so autistic they don't understand that that's a small female, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:53

I had that happen to me the other day. I was like, my most some of my my friends or the like the coaches were like, oh, because they I hadn't trained with this particular person, and they were like, Oh, she's gonna get you in an arm bar, she's gonna get you. And I went into this role like a flow. I was like, sweet, slap bum. And I got annihilated by this brand new white belt who was like, he was there to kill me. And I was like, Oh my god. I actually started laughing at one point because I was like, he's gonna kill me. I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:25

It's when you call your husband over. Oh no, it's it, but it's true though, isn't it? Because again, some people don't don't recognise that, and they just think, oh, because you're a higher belt or you're more experienced, you have to win. And again, it is gender is a is a factor in that, strength is a factor in that, and and you know, the you know, your skill level, it you know, strength does matter, size does matter, and and people sometimes say, especially when you first go into jujitsu, people say like, oh, it doesn't matter, but you know, someone who's a higher belt can always like kind of beat the the small like the bigger person and all that sort of stuff. But it it it's not quite true like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:07

But yeah, strength is kind of in regard to uh like the I guess the again the techniques and the the learning objectives of that age group as they're going into sort of I guess like fully adults. I mean, what what's the objective with that age group in regards to the learning?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:24

Yeah, so at this point, I want them again. I have some kids that start when they're you know 10 years old. So it doesn't change that much in terms of I still need them to understand the core concepts. But now they're getting to the point where they actually understand the concepts of things. If I said to my kids, what do I need to get an armbar? they would be able to tell me that they needed their hip connected to the shoulder and that they needed something behind the elbow to be able to create the breaking mechanics of it. And I think that is where it really starts to change is understanding the core concepts of if I can pin someone's both shoulders onto the mats, I have more ability to control them compared to when they're standing. So while the games kind of remain similar, like I could teach the same game that I taught in my four to fives, but obviously the language will be different. The concept remains the same, but now they actually understand the concept. And this is when I see jujitsu start to evolve to more of that adult level training, where they now know that two hooks in between the legs, say you've got someone standing and you're playing guard and you have two hooks, you don't have to have two hooks in in the exact same, you know. You see little kids and they get their two hooks in and they grab the ankles and then they knock someone down and that's a sweep. But this doesn't have to mean this particular thing. This does mean X guard, this does mean single leg, this does mean inverting and taking the back, and it still does mean two hooks in. The concept remains the same. It's just then how does that apply to more advanced knowledge?

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:17

See, I I really like CLA, and I think the only thing I think like my boy would struggle with if he was doing it at just CLA is he constantly asks me questions about technique. Do you know what I mean? So he's constantly inquisitive. You'll watch something, you'll be like, dad, this barambolo from here, like how do I get it? And then I'll we'll work through that problem. Um and I don't know, like I find some CLA people are quite, you know, it's the only way. And I I think there's definitely like a happy medium in between it. And you know, I I personally, if I was to open an academy tomorrow, I'd probably do it very much a game-based academy, because I definitely think it's probably one, the best way to learn, and I think two, I think it's the most fun. And I think you get a very good workout from that type of training. I think that if I was to open one tomorrow, that was how I would kind of base it. But I quite like talking about jujitsu, and I like quite talking about the intricacies of certain techniques and moves and concepts. And I think sometimes again drilling, not what your classical drilling is, but people understanding what certain moves are and when to use them, I think it's very important. Do you ever talk about that type of stuff with your students? Like you know, when to transition and when to move towards certain positions, and I know it I know the whole thing of uh CLA is to like kind of like make your own mistakes and learn yourself, and I I kind of understand that. But what I find with jujitsu in general is is everything that feels natural is probably not. So you know when you're when you're in your white belt, you want to push your arms out. Um, how many times do you want to get arm by realize you just still don't put your arms out? I know white belts that have been training two years, they still put their arms out. And it's just one of those things, wouldn't it be easier at times to kind of give them guidance with those types of things?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:09

Yeah, 100%. And I think that that is something that does divide the community between like we do not give any kind of information on, you know, we let them make their mistakes and let them learn through their environment. But with kids, it's kind of like, okay, if you've just been armbarred three times in a row because you stuck your arm out, I'm gonna say something. I'm not gonna let you keep being armbared. And I'm not gonna be like, you're making this mistake, do this different. It'll be framed as like, have you noticed that you've just been armbarred three times? And they're usually like, yeah. I'm like, what's happening? Like, what is actually going on here? And they'll tell me and be like, Well, I'm stuck in uh bottom mount, and then I'm sticking my arms up here on their chest to try and push them off. And I'll be like, okay, pause. I'm like, okay, here you are stuck in bottom mount. You're putting their arms right up on their chest. Can you see all of that space that's there? And then I'll be like to the person on the top, I'll be like, what are you doing when they're putting their arms on the chest like that? And then they're usually like, Well, I'm grabbing their arm and I'm arm barring them because their arms are like flailing out like this. And so then they're like, oh. I'm like, yeah, I think maybe we could consider rather than pushing on the chest, why don't you try pushing on the hips or two hands on one leg and just try it, let me know what works for you. So rather than telling them they're wrong and they've made this mistake repeatedly, I'll just give them, be like, okay, can you not let's pause for a second, let's see what mistake is actually happening here without me saying like you're wrong. And then I'll let them guide themselves because what then happens is they're gonna go back and they're gonna try and push on the hips or they're gonna try and push on the leg. And one might be more successful than the other. So if I was to then say to them, you're doing this wrong, and I want you to push on the legs, well, then I'm not giving them the opportunity to explore pushing on the hips because maybe pushing on the hips works better for them. I don't know. It's they might be stronger in that space. So whatever it is, I'm just removing the removing the arm being pushed on the chest for starters and then giving them a different way to explore with it and seeing. And then I'll usually come back and be like, Did you get armbared? And they'll be like, Oh, nah, not as much. And I'll be like, Cool, what worked? And they'll be like, Oh, I really liked when I pushed on the leg. And I'll be like, sweet, keep doing that. That sounds good. And that kind of helps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:42

Yeah, yeah. I I think that's that's how I would kind of tackle the situation as well. I always think like, at the moment, my son's he he's a he's a dirty guard player like me, and he'll he'll sit on his bum and he's getting quite good at retaining his guard. And there's a few times where some of the the stronger lads will just literally like throw his legs and just go into side control, and he's just like getting frustrated with it. He's like, Oh, they keep doing it. Like, he'll even like uh invert, and then when he comes out of the inversion, say, they'll grab his legs and throw it. And I was like, I'm trying to explain to him like as you come out of that inversion, you've got to make a connection. You like like can't let him just grab you and throw you, you've got to make a connection to them. And then working through that problem, he's kind of getting it, but it takes time, it takes time and it takes like a lot of effort. But I think if I was if I was to coach them and just do games, I don't know how I would um uh create that scenario because there's so many specific uh that you know specific points that need to happen in that scenario for it to happen. Um and my other my other thing would be just do you with your games do you focus on the the the fundamental positions? So what I mean by is like you know, jujitsu is hugely complicated, but it can be very, very basic. You know, the pathway from passing the legs to pinning to going into mouth to taking the back to choking them. You know, do you focus on that sort of pathway with with your kids, or do you know throw throw in some fancy stuff to the more advanced guys? Because you know, me personally I find that if they get really good at that pathway, they're really good at jujitsu. A lot of the other stuff isn't that important. Um even at a high level, you know, some of the best guys in the world are super, super um super strong in those fundamental areas.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:31

Yeah, I do focus on uh I think it's five key areas, and it is the idea of uh pinning, guard, passing, submissions, and I always forget the last one. But essentially I am using just the idea of focusing on those particular things, but oh standing, of course, standing and wrestling. How can I get the most important one? But I think that it's for me when I'm planning, I don't want them just doing the same games over and over without putting them into different places within their pinning or different places sort of within guard, because I think then that's when things can get a little bit stale, and maybe they're not going to be able to explore more advanced options for them. So, what would happen is if we're playing, say, I have a guard game and I want the kids again, let's use like the two hooks, for example. So for kids who have just been starting, we might play a scaling game where the when I talk about we call it scaling all levels. I like to use levels. It's like a video game where you're on level one, but you've got to finish level one and then get on to level two. So it goes from the easiest level all the way up to the more complex and harder levels. And so I'll start with the simplest one, is always two hooks in, controlling both legs, both ankles. We know who's gonna win this because you already have four points of contact and control. You're probably gonna bring your partner down quite easily. But this is a good starting point for those who have just started. So if that's level one, that's great. Then level two might be you start with two hooks and one control of the ankle or gig or whatever you'd like to pants, but you don't have that second control. So you're gonna be using your hooks to push and pull to be able to get the control. Then third level, fourth level, whatever it is. But then what I can do is I can start to scale it for those kids for more advanced things. So what I usually like to do in particular is I might say level four is I want you to be able to get your two hooks, but you have to get it from the back. But you have to be able to maintain at least one point of contact throughout the entire time. So when they start inverting, this is when they're gonna start going under. They're really thinking about how can I still keep at least one point of contact on my partner so that I'm not gonna lose the position that my partner's not gonna be able to face me again. And then potentially what like what was happening with your son is that when they invert and then they get their legs smashed and they get passed. So if I'm able to at least keep one point of contact throughout that inversion and then get that back control. And then when I get my two hooks at the back and I'm stuck in now, I'm in this slightly more like advanced back take position, depending if it's ghee or no ghee, you're gonna pull the gi, pull them down, take the back. You might bring them down, and then if you're really loving life, you could do your little barambolo and things look good. But like it's just about scaling it to the level of where they're at. So I can do that game in my class, and some kids are only gonna get to level two, and that's okay because that's where they're at. But then I have other kids that are gonna be on level like five where they're playing X-Guard and then they're, you know, wrestling up from X-guard and then bringing their partner down, whatever it is that they're doing. But there's no rule that says that you now have to learn how to do X-Guard for all of them, they're at their own level.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:08

Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, it's good. It sounds great. It sounds great. Yeah, it's really good, man. Um, Ellie, I'm just mindful of time because it's obviously very light, late for you there. Um I did I do have a few more questions, but we might need to do a part two because uh I could literally talk all day about this. It's it's really interesting. So I think what we'll do is we'll probably wrap it up in a second, but I I really hope that you've got maybe some resources or something that people can come and have a look at to maybe learn a little bit more about how to develop young kids in jujitsu. Do you have anything that you can tell us about?

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:37

Yeah, absolutely. So I have been developing some um game-based resources for kids. I have got a stand store, which is also linked to my Instagram, which is The Art of Coaching, Art with an E on the end. And basically, what I have in there is 10 games that I've designed and developed for kids Brazilian Jiu Jutsu that are purely games. They're all fairy tale and story-based games. Now I'm very, very mindful in my space that I don't actually advocate plug and play. So, what will be required is the understanding of your room and your environment to be able to coach this effectively. And we go through that in the whole thing. So throughout the course, I give you a video of the game being played. I will give you the story, and I also give you like external cues that I want you to be looking for, and then understanding how to implement something within your training room, but also learning when to stop the game. So this is something that I think is really important as well. So that's available. It's actually not even that expensive. It's$29.99 US dollars. Like it's not even a huge amount of money. It was the first thing that I put out there that I would just went, I don't know if people are gonna like what I'm doing, but let's see what happens. And it's very well received, which is lovely. Uh, from there, I also do offer things like personalized um coaching for kids' coaches, but the best place to be able to also be part of things is my school community, where I have an amazing community of coaches from all around the world, some of them very experienced in CLA and games, some of them just learning about this and for the first time are experiencing games for kids and how it changes the way that they're coaching. And we basically we meet every week, we have a mat chat where we talk about our week, what happened, what's been going on. I do a monthly workshop. So this month is the anatomy of a BJJ game, where we essentially just are gonna go through all of that big scary language that happens in CLA and break it down to actually simplify it for you to understand how you can implement this in your kids' classes. And I find that these two things mixed together are just the best way to start understanding. But if you're not ready to even jump into any of that, honestly, my Instagram, I try really hard to give as much free content and resources and support as I can.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:14

Yeah, that sounds amazing. I'll certainly be checking out the uh the the the course of the games. I think that sounds like really good fun. But again, I really enjoyed this. So thank you for coming on. We'll we'll have to do a part two because there were other things I wanted to talk to you about. But um, yeah, thanks for coming on. It's been great chatting to you. Cheers, Ellie, thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:29

No, thank you so much, guys. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.